18 responses to “The Cursed Merciless Watchers Boss Drop List”

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1. >
   I haven’t farmed them much. I imagine they have a slightly stronger version of the regular scurrying beast gems, which include just about everything but odd, warm, and bloodtinge

2. Odd question, but I figure this would be the thread to ask it.

   Every now and then, I find giant scurrying beasts in Lower Loran dungeons. You know, the ones with the tails you find in Nightmare Frontier? Unexpectedly, the big ones in dungeons will respawn unlike the smaller guys, and I’ve gotten some interestingly large gems from them. Any idea what their drop list is like? Namely, do they have secondary effects or is it only primary ones?

3. >
   They haven’t updated the digital guide in months. It probably won’t get an update until well after the DLC is out

4. Oh cool, so my hunch was right. The only thing I didn’t guess there was Madmen gems actually exceeding the normal gem value with their double secondaries. Pity there’s no Madman boss, that’d be really useful.

   Yeah, I’m appalled at the state of the gem section of the guidebook. Just… absolutely terrible. Hopefully they get around to fixing that in the digital edition, if they haven’t already. On that note, why even bother with the physical version?

5. The curses from the Big Bad Bosses like Ebrietas and Amygdala are potentially stronger than any other curses in the game. -10%ATK, -10HP, -11-13% ATK vs beasts/kin, +3-4% stamina cost, -60-69 WPN durability. Lesser bosses/enemies have lesser curses. Rom, for example, has reduced curses to compensate for the slightly decreased primary effect.

   Secondary effects are entirely tied to enemy. They each have a pool of potential effects. The gargoyle in pwmf, for example, has a secondary effect pool of +5.4% charged attacks, +5.4% atk vs open foes, -1.5% stamina cost, +1hp recovery, +8 phys ATK, and a couple of others. The Merciless Watchers do not have a secondary effect, which is why their gems are so good overall. The only variation seen thus far with the Fatty drop pool is the red shotgun fatties that drop bloodtinge gems.

   The effects of gems basically run off of a nuanced and somewhat-intutitive balanced-total system. It considers the rating of the gem, the potential severity of that gem’s curses, the secondary effects available, and the potency of the primary effect. It’s all relative. The factors that determine the gem you get are all dependent upon the enemy you fight. Most enemies have about the same potential secondary effect potency relative to their drop pools (even if some are more desirable than others). This balancing system excludes secondary effect multipliers, such as the one seen on the Madmen gems, because the total of all 3 effects is more favorable than any normal equivalent gems. Most Abyssals don’t outperform rank 19 Fatty gems because the secondary effect reduces the primary effect to compensate for both effects. The only way that Abyssal can outperform the perfect equivalent from the Fatties is if that secondary effect stacks in a beneficial way, such as charged atks up, atk up vs open foes, atk vs beasts/kin, etc. Odd effects aren’t affected by moveset multipliers, so they are less beneficial than an equivalent percent beneficial effect on weapons with good attack multipliers. For weapons with poor multipliers, Odd effects can be more beneficial overall, but rarely are.

   If you were to test 1 brainsucker in 100 different dungeons, I doubt you’d find any variance in their drop pool besides a potentially uncommon or rare primary effect becoming common in one instance. That effect could literally be anything in their drop pool, or potentially something outside of their normal drop pool, but would only be as relatively powerful as the other effects in the pool regardless. Because they only have Odd arcane as a secondary effect, it’s extremely unlikely or even impossible that you’ll find any other secondary effect from any of those 100 brainsuckers.

   This is the kind of stuff that should have been studied and explained in the Bestiary and Blood Gems sections of the “Official Guide”, and sadly wasn’t. The research for the Official Guide didn’t even get the moveset modifiers right for the Logwheel, which took no more than a simple point-slope formula and a little common sense to find; and they probably had some high-level-math whizzes working on it! <- My apologies for this little tangent. I harbor a wee-bit o’ resentment that FS didn’t give FP the information they needed.

6. @Astrichthyes_: I’m wholly convinced that secondary effects come from the enemy who drops them. Brainsuckers almost always drop gems with gigantic flat arcane secondary effects, headless BLB drops gems with flat physical and +attack vs open foes, etc. Watcher trio doesn’t seem to drop gems with a secondary effect at all, which is why their gems are so good. If this were true, it wouldn’t so much be that Labyrinth Madmen drop gems with doubled secondary effects but that their pool for secondary effects is simply drastically different from other enemies. Might be the entire reason why all abyssal gems kind of suck, since the only enemies capable of dropping them (layer 3/4 bosses) may also have a guaranteed secondary effect pool.

   On the subject of curses also being tied to the enemy that dropped the gem, I once got a gem from Ebrietas with -10 hp per second. Highest value I’ve ever seen, that one.

   I can be available for testing and chalice shenanigans, to a point. Bit of a guilty secret here, I actually lack the patience to check and double-check something 100 times in a row. I can at least report any oddities I find though, provided I know what I’m looking for.

7. You guys should get Mal in on your research, if he’s willing. He has some glyphs with curiosities that may interest you.

   On the subject of LHB, even a 30/30 quality build will beat out a 50 arc build, assuming optimal gems on both. That’s just LHB’s ridiculous scaling, though. Most weapons invert a rule or two.

   Is anyone else disappointed the bow has native arc? I was hoping to make it a pure arc weapon for my arc builds. Oh well. Guess I’ll hunt down some odd bolts.

8. From what i’ve seen, the ONLY two enemies that have a doubled secondary effect are the Labyrinth Madmen and the Abhorrent Beast. Loran Darkbeast has normal primary and secondary effect strength, on par with Ebrietas and Watchdog. I have a Lower Loran glyph where the Madman consistently drops 19.5-21% fire/bolt with around +30 fire/bolt as possible secondary effects, among other primary and secondary effects. Curses are in the normal range of 10-12% for beast/kin, 3% for stamina, -58-63 WPN durability, -8-9 HP, and 8-9% ATK down. In truth, the Pthumeru LMM have almost the same exact primary effects as the regular skinny Watchers that smatter every dungeon, with the exeption of the one in our RFC Lower Loran. The only difference I’ve seen between their gems is the secondary effect, which is about 5.6% vs 12.6%.

   I cannot say the theory that specific glyphs giving higher probability to specific effects isn’t true, because it very well may be, but I have yet to see that in the countless hours I’ve spent farming dozens of dungeons beyond some very rare exceptions with specific enemies in specific glyphs. One of those exceptions is a Cainhurst Hunter I found in a now-extinct RFC Isz that only dropped triangular Radiant gems, rather than the normal Hunter NPC drop pool. This is one of about 100 Hunter NPC’s that I’ve encountered and killed in the dungeons and the only exception thus far. Those odds aren’t good in the face of small-team research.

   I can say that curse variation is different between enemies, with gems from Amygdala being among the most heavily cursed, but ATK down being incredibly rare. Rarely do I see ATK down on any of the gems that the gargoyle in pwmf22gu drops either, but they are quite frequent on other enemies such as the Small Celestial Emissaries and Scurrying Beasts. Secondary effects also vary in frequency on different enemies with similar potential effects.

   It’s entirely possible to find glyphs where specific enemies drop a rare and potentially desirable gem, but to do so would take a whole team of players many hours of dedicated work and collaboration. Even if we did manage to do it, it would probably require making 100+ new glyphs and exploring and farming every single one. It’s an ambitious project, but not at all practical without a lot of volunteers to help accomplish it. We’re doing all that we can right now as a team of 2

9. >
   In regards to elemental gems having higher values than physical gems, this makes sense if we remember that elemental damage only scales with one stat (arcane) whereas physical damage can scale with two stats (strength and skill). A LHB with 50 strength, 25 skill, and max tempering gems will probably have a higher attack rating than the same LHB with 50 arcane and max arcane gems.

10. >
    Interesting. Unless I’m mistaken, Malbuere determined that LDB can have a doubled secondary effect as well. He also has a glyph with a Sage that reliably drops r17+ hybrid fire gems. Hybrid elementals are potentially much stronger than hybrid phys gems. The best I’ve seen personally was +23% bolt +32 bolt with a stamina curse from Abhorrent Beast, give or take a point. Talk to PrimeraEspada91 for more info on that.

    If you wouldn’t mind some testing, I have a theory that curses and secondary effects are sorted into sets, and a specific instance of a given boss trends toward a particular set, or may only drop one set. For example, one instance of watchdog may drop mainly ATK down and HP drain curses, while another may mainly drop kin down, beast down and stamina curses.

11. >
    Agreed, it can take a long time to farm the trio if you’re only after gems, as their loot table is hardly different, BUT they are good to farm if you want Chunks as well as gems. A short layer 1 like 5pwujscd is great for farming both of those things simultaneously. If you want gems and gems alone, by all means, kill the red fatty because it won’t take as long. I do wonder: what is the difference in drop rates for perfect gems, if there is any?

    The Sages (Labyrinth Madmen, to clarify) don’t affect anything at all. Their gems in particular are very different from any other gem with 1 exception: the Abhorrent Beast. The primary effect of the Sage gems is a little below average, but the secondary effect is much stronger than normal, making them potentially the best gems in the game. Right now, we’re still working on the full drop list because they, like the Watchers, have a relatively large drop pool with some very rare primary and secondary effects. The List might not be ready for some time to come.

12. After all your hard work, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but watcher bosses aren’t good for farming due to their large drop tables. A buffed watcher midboss has a much more focused table, and can be killed in 45 seconds from spawn to bold mark, vs the time needed to load the dungeon, run to the lever, bold mark, kill the boss, then exit to the dream, reset the dungeon and reenter.

    Bloodtinge gems also drop very, VERY rarely from the gun toting variant. Up to 31.5% radial tinge gems, meaning it is possible to have a pure tinge gem set on chikage.

    Still, thank you for the hard work. It is appreciated. Chalice dungeons have far too little research into their inner workings.

    Edit: Sages have an effect on dungeons, you say… interesting. Does the midboss determine the invisible modifiers on gems, or is it sages specifically? I still wonder if the altar has some minor effect on some aspect of the dungeon. Their designs are awfully intricate, especially the one at the top, which has a unique rune similar to the contract.

13. I’ve heard Sages do weird things to secondary effects. Should be interesting.

    Thanks for doing all this for us.

14. @Malbeure: the red watchers do potentially drop the same gems, but if you need chunks – and almost everyone will for the new weapons – farming the trio can kill two birds with one stone. Since the fatties have a 100% drop rate, you don’t even need the eye runes unless you’re farming the trio for gems and chunks. Eye runes only affect how often something drops, regardless of quality.

    @TSMP: Indeed, the Tempering Abyssals can be better with a secondary effect. Both effects can stack multiplicatively as well, so your gem gives you 31.8% physical attack and an additional 5.6% on any secondary element you have, such as arcane on the BoM, BB, the Wheel, or bolt on the Tonitrus. That said, wait until you see the gem research we’ve been working on with the Sages. More to come soon!

15. Great work. Have you experimented with red watchers? I mean the “red hued” Watchers at levers or guarding chests in bonus areas. With 3 Eye runes it’s a good time. If you can find a layer with an extremely easy red watcher to access it makes things a breeze. Just bold marking back to lamp instead of having to remake the dungeon and get the lever each time. It’s saved me so much time and energy.

16. Wow thanks mate. This is really useful, might try this out when the weekend arrives!

17. Fine work.

    On a slight tangent, I’ve noticed that layer 3-4 Bloodletting Beast (with his head) drops cursed abyssal gems that can be better than Watcher pure temperings in the right situations. For instance, I have a cursed abyssal tempering with something around +24.8% physical up and +5.6%-ish attack up against open foes, giving it a total of over +30% more physical damage when hitting open foes (assuming the percentages don’t affect each other, in which case it’d be a bit higher). I have another one with +24.8% physical up and some number of flat physical damage less than 10, which makes it slightly better than a normal full cursed damp tempering on weapons with low AR like the Blade of Mercy.

    But I imagine it’d be a pain in the butt to farm for both a tolerable curse and a beneficial secondary ability off a layer 3/4 boss, especially one like BLB. Watchers are just easier, faster to get to, and give gems that are good in all situations rather than better in specific situations. It isn’t impossible to have a dungeon with both, though…

18. 

    Now you only need to add the information to the respective wiki pages!

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