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Polyedra

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#1
Knight: 132 - Some say 133 is the limit for invading 120 but I don't want to risk it. Did the math once and I know that the cut-off point lies between 132 and 133 and that it depends on how the game rounds it down. Since I have no reliable way of testing this I'm going to stick with 132.
Vigor: 36 (41)
Endurance: 25 (30) - Points have to come from somewhere but I disagree that endurance is trash.
Attunement: 24 - 4 slots but also for the focus points. Tried the Darkmoon ring and the problem becomes the FP.
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 18
Faith: 40
Intelligence: 40

Right:
Chaos Brigand Twindaggers - For the big critical chaos brings, otherwise dark gives higher general damage since strength gives defense against fire. Main weapon, because I like it.
Demon's Roar - Because it is a curved sword and a catalyst.

Left:
Llewellyn shield - Parries and limited blocking.
Dark Great Corvian Scythe - When melee reach is needed. Main intent is to dual wield with Demon's Roar.

Hornet ring - Critical damage.
Chloranthy ring - I try to always get this when I'm forced down on stamina. I even pick it if I have maxed out the stamina, usually.
Sage ring - Maxing out the casting speed is a must.
Prisoner's chain - For additional stats.

Chaos Bed Vestiges - Hits for somewhat above 400 with this build which is awful but it is so fast that if someone is whiffing R1:s in my face I can punish that garbo, which is the idea.
Warmth - To force people to be aggressive and to heal of course. I like this heal, it's fair since you have to fight over it! There's a roar when it is casted with Demon's scar! :devil:

So that's the new meta build. What you guys think?
It's not very good at anything but it has a lot of tools. The idea is to be as flexible as possible. The melee damage is fairly maxed out for all the weapons. I got low hitpoints and low stamina though, but if I play well I can make due and the potential healing makes up for the small pool of hitpoints to an extent. A point on Warmth is that the cast is incredibly quick, especially with the best cast speed, so you can initiate the heal at any point when given an opportunity. Chaos bed vestiges has fair damage given how little is invested into it and while it may not two-shot people it still hurts them and can trade with crossbows or other shenanigans.
I feel that I need a damage spell or the stats are wasted and this is what I came up with. It's a compromise. Haven't played much with it but it seems to work alright.
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Polyedra

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#2
I'm sure everyone's at the edge of their seat to learn the continuance of this outstanding build, so I'll write it down for you! Beacause that's what I like to do...

I have realized that Demon's scar hurt the build too much. I want to have the roar when I cast Warmth but the damage penalty and wasted stats are just too much of a burden. And so is taking a weak damage spell.

Vigor: 39 (44) - 1469/1909 hitpoints
Endurance: 35 (40) - 179 stamina, this is required. It was one of the main reasons I changed the build. The twindagger combo eat a lot of stamina, not like other daggers.
Today people trade stamina for other stats but I think it's a bad idea. It's good for chasedowns, blocking/partial parry and constant attacks. Running about too. Depends on what you use and how you use it, granted, but still it is not the poor stat people make it out to be. Neither is vitality if you want to be tough as nails, but that's a different discussion. And it definitely depends on what kind of points you have available, of course.
Attunement: 14 - 114 FP, good for the quickstep and required for two slots to attune Warmth.
Strength: 16 - Required to wield the scythe which I think is a very good weapon because it rivals whips in range and has high damage.
Dexterity: 35 - This softcaps the Carthus shotel and helps both the Twindaggers and the Great corvian scythe.
Intelligence: 30 - Softcap for dark and chaos.
Faith: 30 - Softcap for dark and chaos as well as a requirement to use Warmth.

Right:
Chaos brigand twindaggers - 359 AR, this hits hard with the combo and while chaos is at its worst against strength users daggers have the advantage in that fight so it doesn't matter. Also good against other dark builds, and has the best critical with chaos.
Dark carthus shotel - Brutal 489/494 AR, might infuse this with chaos as well because strength users will mostly be at disadvantage against this quick weapon while those who use dark won't be as resilient against it. Had about 350 AR with Demon's scar and it was just not realistic compared to this weapon that has farther range and superior damage.

Left:
Llewellyn shield - 59 stability, I think the regular shields are the best. Almost no contest actually, in my opinion. This shield has particularly good stats and is easily the best choice.
Pyromancer's parting flame - For casting warmth and to look the best. This is the second slot so that the spell can be reached immidiately.
Great corvian scythe - 539/551 AR, has real range and damage as well as fairly quick attacks. Great offhand and twohand. Can't be reached instantly because of the catalyst but it is a sacrifice that must be made and I don't use it that often anyway. Been thinking of putting Murakumo here, but it is heavier and requires more strength so I don't know. Murakumo doesn't have the amazing range that the scythe has either, but it's pretty good and the sweeps are better. Maybe the Carthus curved greatsword cause it is lighter and doesn't require as much strength. Looks worse though :P

Hornet ring - For better criticals. Important because backstabs are common to get with a dagger, also for the parries of course.
Prisoner's chain - For trading stats into dexterity for damage. Doesn't lose effective hitpoints with this because of the improved life and absorption, real disadvantage is lacking Chloranthy ring.
Life ring - Stack that life, it's good!
Ring of favor - I mainly pick this for the stamina improvement but the other perks are good as well, of course. When I feel I don't need the stamina I drop this ring.

Warmth - This gives me healing and it provokes my opponent to attack. Many times it provides an opportunity to get into the fight again but if I'm unable to keep my ground it will work against me. I think that's both fair and fun! It's absolutely the most fun heal in the game and it casts very quickly so if I get a moment of peace it is possible to cast this. I can also heal anyone with it so if my opponent is struggling I can help them out a little and we can keep fighting for a while longer. Against those who cannot pressure this is a nightmare, as it should be.

Fashion:
Herald's helm, Fallen knight armor, Nameless knight gloves and Black knight leggings.
~ 21% physical absorption.
~ 17% elemental absorption.
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Polyedra

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#3
And no, this isn't actually some kind of challenger build. It's just a build with what I like, carefully picked out.
I never liked crossbows so I excluded that and replaced it with an offhand, for example.
Don't enjoy blocking people to death either, so I haven't picked a shield that can do that but one that parries excellently with good enough blocking capacity to stand for a few blocks if needed.
I rather not straight sword so I got the curved sword instead. The running attack is the best, imo, and because of that it is more fun to play with than the straight swords. It's also quick!
My favorite weapon in the game is the twindaggers so I main that and have built around them because I like them, not because they're good in particular. I think they're good enough though. The combo hits hard and while the lesser reach can be troublesome it is not an obstacle impossible to overcome if you wanna look smart.
I like regeneration, always did, but I dislike buffs and I rather have a different ring and a shield that has good stability so warmth is a perfect choice for me. I don't even sacrifice much for it with this build. It's a social spell as well, letting me heal my companions; sort of like a portable bonfire. It's not a heal that's frowned upon either, cause it must be defended and may be captured.
I've put a lot of thought into how this should play and what the reason for each component is. And yeah, someone else has absolutely done a better job when it comes to their goals but I think I've captured most of what I want with this, at least what I want today. Tomorrow there's something else, probably :-)
The reason I write this down is because enjoy writing itself and like to share my ideas practicing that interest. I wrote my thoughts down, reasons why and why not, so a reader can think about them and learn about the game. I don't pretend to be able to educate a dark souls veteran but I might help others to knowledge by sharing the pieces I found. That's why I post my FINAL META xD
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Polyedra

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#4
Well, I think I'll have to move on to invasions because no one likes healing in duels even if warmth is tolerable. I rather be sweetly likeable than tolerable :-)
Time to get rekt then.

Achtpuntzes

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#5
The point is u stepped in DS3 real late, everything is already done so u only trying to reinvent the wheel.

Im not sure what u trying to do here. Posting a PvP based build with warmth to heal your allies? What allies? Warmth is a totally waste of your 2 slots as it heals your opponent also so i don't see any advantage. Yes u can flee when in trouble to heal where some host enemies are, but a heal spell is way faster then. But fleeing/healing is for ****** so u rather not want to do that. (so, it isnt that healing spells arent accepted, it just the fact that u look like a ***** fleeing trying to get time and space to do your heal spell so people wont respect u)

If u want to be a succesfull pyro pvp guy, the best and fastest way is to look some vids of guys that already mastered it. Learn about set up spells and free aiming spells and other things that are needed to be a badass pyro. Then go try it out, and eventually master it. That will make u a succesfull pyro way faster then trying to reinvent stuff that is already tried/maxed out by many players before u.
sl59 faith guy +8
sl42 luck guy +6
sl38 dex guy +5
sl20 +3
sl1 +2
no meta build
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Polyedra

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#6
For me it is glorious to explore, that's what I'm doing :-)
And I don't want to play a pyromancer... I just included a damage spell in my first iteration but concluded it was not a valuable addition. Perhaps I could take Black flame together with Parting flame, maybe that would be good damage even without rings? Been meaning to ask that.
I will have allies against a gank and in a gank, with Warmth I can set up a beacon to force people to fight more aggressively over that beacon. And in PvE I can heal my phantoms and myself very efficiently. In the arena I can also heal and make people attack me, it can throw people off balance.

Thank you for the reply but you're missing the point in making my own build. Haven't you experimented a lot to come up with your current build? Or have you copied someone else's? No shame in doing that, absolutely not, but there's a charm to discovery.
And umm, I don't run; I stand and fight. That's also a reason why Warmth is the best heal for me because it has a lightning fast cast and requires me to hold my position.

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#7
No, i never copied builds myself, but im playing this game from the start and always stayed way below meta level (my builds cap at 69sl max), and besides that they all are original as hell, so i made, tweaked and mastered some low sl builds that i never seen by others.

i kinda responded to the title of this topic, 'the tale of the new meta', and i can tell u that everything is figured out already at meta level, no way you can come up with a new build that rocks. That what i was trying to say, maybe in wrong words. But i didnt wanted to diss u or something. Sorry if u felt that way.

I still stand my opinion against warmth. It dull, heals your opponent too, and takes a whooping 2 spell slots. Why not do denial as an extra defence? only takes one slot, and is way more helpfull then warmth. And your supporting buddies should look after themselves, if they need your warmth they suck anyway so you dont need them.
sl59 faith guy +8
sl42 luck guy +6
sl38 dex guy +5
sl20 +3
sl1 +2
no meta build
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Polyedra

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#8
Achtpuntzes wrote:No, i never copied builds myself, but im playing this game from the start and always stayed way below meta level (my builds cap at 69sl max), and besides that they all are original as hell, so i made, tweaked and mastered some low sl builds that i never seen by others.

I liked your three dagger build. Don't remember all components now but it was cool. Gonna check it out later I think but I'm out of slabs unless I kill Aldritch and I don't want to do that yet cause I like to get invaded in gank city. Actually won a two versus one there! They tried to have me kill the PvE and I dodged around trying to get to them. After a while they got that I wanted their buisness and started fighting me. One guy was killed by a giant and I got the girl on my own with the daggers! That was my best fight! I did really well, my proudest moment :00020:
I've been thinking about a lower level, got one at 30 that's pretty sharp. She's with a Lkss though, some regen... Dunno, never play her anymore. I want something fresh and your build's looking real slick! Maybe I'll do that. It's fun too, to play the game with a clear objective. Got a friend I'm gonna do a playthrough with and we're making new characters, so it's a good opportunity and the bosses won't be as hard.

Achtpuntzes wrote:i kinda responded to the title of this topic, 'the tale of the new meta', and i can tell u that everything is figured out already at meta level, no way you can come up with a new build that rocks. That what i was trying to say, maybe in wrong words. But i didnt wanted to diss u or something. Sorry if u felt that way.

Just a bait ;-) I know I'm not doing anything original, or anything that will rival the best builds. Thank you for your consideration :-) I know you a little now, I know you're a bit blunt sometimes :-)

Achtpuntzes wrote:I still stand my opinion against warmth. It dull, heals your opponent too, and takes a whooping 2 spell slots. Why not do denial as an extra defence? only takes one slot, and is way more helpfull then warmth. And your supporting buddies should look after themselves, if they need your warmth they suck anyway so you dont need them.

Tear's is two slots actually, but you're right it's a good spell. Thing is that many pick up a thorn armor piece to counter it but sometimes it does matter, like you can survive a ripost with it and perhaps turn the tide.
Thing about warmth is that it's the best damn bait in the game. People flock around it like flies to a turd! Many times I get pummeled when people suddenly get aggressive but that's my own fault not the spell's. Other times I can outmanouver them and take advantage of their movement, cause they will try and capture the beacon while I get my bearings. If I get the cast off safely I usually have to move out from it to drink ashen and make preparations and many times they stay and heal instead of coming at me, which is a mistake because I'm pretty hard to catch if I'm good and prepared having quickstep. Sometimes I use the scythe and defend and many are troubled dealing with a scythe and curved sword dual wield. Many drop their guard to rush me and that's not a good idea...
I'm not sacrificing much to pick this spell with the build I'm using, almost nothing at all. I got top damage for my weapons and I have high hitpoints, what more can be asked for! Sure, I could put the points into vitality or take tears of denial but it wouldn't help much, not like warmth does. It's really a game changer cause people get provoked very easily by it! Against the best? I dunno. I'm not good enough to play against people who are at the top of their game but I think my build is usuable and would stand a chance if I performed better. But yeah, it's not like straight sword/black knight shield/crossbow/chime. One thing I don't like about the straight swords is their running attack, it is a weakness of that weapon. I think curved swords do have a powerful advantage over them there.

I don't really play with groups that much, just duels for now. If I'm good with my twindaggers maybe they won't curse at me you know. They wanna win and they'll see me as a burden instead of a teammate, that's how I think they're thinking. So that's why I don't, cause I want to play like I want to play and not do meta just so my random team gets their easy win. I really don't care who wins as long as I'm having a good time! But yeah, I'm still not good with the daggers. I probably never will be :-| I have my moments though :-) Some days ago I actually kept destroying golds with the daggers and ranked up with them! That felt great, like I got somewhere! But today's been a bad day for me. I'm pretty uneven in my performance. Started to try and do my bad matchups like daggers versus swords and curved sword versus greatswords, stuff like that, for practice. Sometimes it's not needed. Met a guy who I just could not get a backstab on and barely hurt at all and he was using an ultra. Really quick! Think I won a match out of ten :P It's really fun playing against someone like that who man up against their disadvantage and wins!
Warmth is less about healing and more about turning the tide, trying to change the rythm of the battle so to speak. It's very effective at doing that. Not that I can prove it, of course, but if you try it you'll see how it affects people...
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#9
the point of a biuild is to enjoy it, not necessarily optimal efficiency (something the meta cancer MLG player cannot even fathom).
I destroy everything and every body using a shield and a SS...but holy crap is this boring! so I am not doing it...actually those are the only 2 weapon class I am not using ever...actually no...axes...I hate axes too.

I can perfectly see how warmth can be satisfying. I can also see how using it in tandem with a friend on obscuring ring sniping from afar using the millwood greatbow could be great....or could be a great way to force people to agglutinate on or near corpses to use dead again...

I have been playing exlusively at soul level 33 +4 (Maldoror warrior strength) and 66 +8 (Old Mannounakis warrior 20/39 quality) lately and I have so much fun at these levels. the fun is back. Meta invasions is just boring and not balanced for the invader at all due the the sheer unbalance between defense and damage and the overwhelming frequency of chaos bed vestiges flying around while you are already fighting 2 opponents. I stick to the arena at sl120 (fighting probably 99% soul 130 and beyond but whatever)

retrospectively, the fact that they introduced this limitation on weapon upgrade for match making on top of the soul level is what keeps the game alive and well. It looks like all the good players are sticking to low level from the last year or so and when you go to meta level all you see is bulldozer tactics.
at low levels, you have so many twists on alliances and behaviours because players are in there for fun, not to "win". this makes a huge difference.

that being said, the meta arena is still a good traininng ground for technicity on 1vs1. But fighting in invasions requires a totally different set of tactics and weapons that are also nice in their own right.
anyways.
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Polyedra

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#10
announakis wrote:the point of a biuild is to enjoy it, not necessarily optimal efficiency (something the meta cancer MLG player cannot even fathom).
I destroy everything and every body using a shield and a SS...but holy crap is this boring! so I am not doing it...actually those are the only 2 weapon class I am not using ever...actually no...axes...I hate axes too.

I was into Greataxe, lol that weapon! *RAAAAAHH!!* But I dropped it once I realized everyone will roll me to my grave. One handed axes are a bit too slow so I never got into them.
I love this game because I can choose my build. It's not linear, it's not a set path. They've done well but they have to do even better in the future.
While optimization is interesting it is only so when used together with certain criteria. If the criteria is winning all matches regardless of playstyle it ruins the fantasy. The build becomes homogenic and generic and seizes to be an expression of your imagination. It's like a fighting game with hundreds of characters but only one that is viable. I seldom see those builds though, I guess people want to play cool stuff like me!
Played this guy who uses a dagger with the ranged heal. He's a strong player and he won every match against my twindaggers. Then I got him down to half life this one time and he immidately backed off to heal. Asked him about it later why he did it against a player who's clearly below his skill level and he said it was practice for very skilled players. The only thing I see is fear of the loss. So afraid to lose that he won't man up and risk losing. Weak. I may be a weak combatant but I'm never weak like that. Didn't call him out on it though. He can do what he wants as long as he respects me as a person, which was the reason I contacted him to ask why he pointed down on me. He told me I just needed to "git gud" and I never had to fear humiliation again. So I asked him why he wanted to humiliate me and he answered that he couldn't help it because he was too good a player. So I told him that there is no shame in losing and it does not equal humiliation, that it was his expression that humilated me not the loss. To me it is clear that he was afraid of the perceived humiliation of losing a game due, and I project onto him, to all those times when he has disgraced his opponent and all the times he was disgraced by an opponent. He, and many with him, has come to equal loss and humiliation because of their behaviour and has thus mixed up the concept of winning, losing and humiliating someone through communication. Not very clever, but very common. He was polite but somewhat full of himself because he believed he had constructed an original build and was a top player. Thing is that, like Achtpuntzes pointed out, everything was discovered a year ago. Not only that, but the builds that these elitists discover has most certainly been discovered by someone else in parallell. I saw no surprises in his build. It was not a difficult, rare and carefully planned optimization in my view. He was very proud of it, much like myself with my builds, so I didn't say anything about it because I liked his joy even though I was a little disturbed by his arrogance.
Played at High wall with a new character and got summoned to a PvP host. We got invaded by a purple who was decked out, specialized in hitpoints and lame play ;P But we fought him off despite me being a straight forward newly spawned knight. Then he ran for the PvE but the host did not follow so neither did I (keep at your host kids, that's the baus). Then he got an invasion buddy but still he wouldn't come at us. That guy was decent but we killed him. And then we got 2 blues and began to chase the purple through the PvE, so he crystalled out. Geez, that's so damn weak! Sure you're in trouble but that's what you have full estus and the best gear possible for! What is there to be afraid of? Nothing. Defeat can be glorius too, and running from it like that is poor.

announakis wrote:I can perfectly see how warmth can be satisfying. I can also see how using it in tandem with a friend on obscuring ring sniping from afar using the millwood greatbow could be great....or could be a great way to force people to agglutinate on or near corpses to use dead again...

It is satisfying! I really like it :00020:
It would be evil to lure people like that :devil: but what do you mean with the second sentence? "agglutinate on or near corpses to use dead again...?"

announakis wrote:I have been playing exlusively at soul level 33 +4 (Maldoror warrior strength) and 66 +8 (Old Mannounakis warrior 20/39 quality) lately and I have so much fun at these levels. the fun is back. Meta invasions is just boring and not balanced for the invader at all due the the sheer unbalance between defense and damage and the overwhelming frequency of chaos bed vestiges flying around while you are already fighting 2 opponents. I stick to the arena at sl120 (fighting probably 99% soul 130 and beyond but whatever)

Yeah, I feel that way too. The damage grows too high relative hitpoints and fights become too short and unpredictable. You just can't defend against random spells together with ultras swinging left and right, and there's the combos that'll kill you immediately. At lower level you have a fighting chance even when outmatched! You just have to play better than your opponent. It becomes more a skill game and less of a roulette mash play when the hitpoints to damage ratio is balanced. But it has to be this way. If that ratio was always balanced the reason to level would become questionable. It is better that the different levels have different playstyles.

I want to do SL60 Warmth. So I need 30 faith. And I will need as high amount of hitpoints as possible. I'm thinking I'll do Lkss and Twindaggers together with Iron round shield and a pyro flame so I need 18 dex also. But what will my infusion be? Do I take lightning or will it be too weak at such low faith? I know the daggers double slash benefit the most out of the twin weapons from elemental damage but is it enough to warrant a lightning infusion or should I take raw and buff with resin? Is lightning blade good with that faith? Not that I think I can afford 18 attunement for the slot...
What upgrade level do I take? Can I invade the cathedral at 60 with +8? Or am I too high for that? What areas do you invade with your character?

I fought a SL110 with my SL132 in the arena. Seems that match making there is loosened compared to invasions.

announakis wrote:retrospectively, the fact that they introduced this limitation on weapon upgrade for match making on top of the soul level is what keeps the game alive and well. It looks like all the good players are sticking to low level from the last year or so and when you go to meta level all you see is bulldozer tactics.
at low levels, you have so many twists on alliances and behaviours because players are in there for fun, not to "win". this makes a huge difference.

that being said, the meta arena is still a good traininng ground for technicity on 1vs1. But fighting in invasions requires a totally different set of tactics and weapons that are also nice in their own right.
anyways.

It's really cool when people do unexpected things! That's why I want to play warmth!
The bulldozer stuff is not so cool... Just mash R1 in a squad ftw. It's a sickness the PvE suffers from as well actually.
Arena's been my saviour, I'd never learn without easily accessible matches. But it's not my goal. My goal is to invade and also being invaded.

Thank you for the reply :-)
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