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Reaperfan

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#3141
Forum_Pirate wrote:There aren't nation wide and national scale talks about "how do we deal with radical conservatives" despite raw numbers wise radical conservatives being a greater domestic threat.


Genuinely asking for curiosity, not trying to be snarky or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way.

But where are you getting these numbers from? I'll be the first to admit I don't keep up with every single bit of news out there, but Charlottesville is the first right-wing protest/attack/whatever I've seen get covered either by the MSM or by alternative news sources online in a long time. Even the leftist places I go to every once in a while haven't ever seemed to mention anything specific beyond the generic overreactions of "these people are being misogynist/sexist/homophobic/Nazis."

And yet I can remember multiple large-scale, violent Antifa protests which had more participants than the Alt-Righters at Charlottesville. I seem to recall the international event that Trump went to had estimates of something like 10,000 Antifa protesters, and the Berkeley riots protesting Milo Yiannopoulos had around 1500 Antifa, while the Charlotesville Alt-Righters I've never heard numbers greater than 1000.

Again, I don't research personally. I just take what information happens to flow past me. But unless you have more to say otherwise, everything I've seen has shown Leftist groups to be much more prevalent in terms of large-scale organized violence compared to the Alt-Right.
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Forum_Pirate

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#3142
New York Times, News week, New America Foundation, Democracy Now. It's been going on forever, it just gets dismissed as "lone crazy people" and doesn't get as much coverage or gets different kinds of coverage. Also, the FBI is quite good at preventing them, and in that instance they don't get more than a day of coverage.

Outside the US it's an entirely different story.

That statement has some things to unpack. Antifa isn't really left wing. They can lean either left or right. What they are, is anarchists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGUCq5fpMGo
See the red and/or black flags, and the black flag with the circled A? Anarchist flags. Image search the word Anarchist flags and that's exactly what you'll see. Anarchists can believe that corperations should be strictly controlled and regulated by communities up to and including not being allowed to exsist in the first place (ie be communist), or they can believe in totally free markets where the only rule is that you can't be hurting anyone (ie be neoliberal.) Similar story with social issues. The 1 thing they have in common is they don't believe the government, especially the larger governments that aren't directly accountable to their communities (as anarchists don't necessarily believe in no government at all,) have any right to be imposing their will on anybody. It's not a left or right wing thing, it's an extreme libretarian thing.

There's also the thing of tactics. The neo nazis and the like tend to not bother hiding their identities, believing they should be proud of them (at least if they're showing up to protests.) TL:DR, this would scare away people who believe in the cause to some extent but are concerned with becoming social pariahs or losing their jobs. Anarchist protests use tactics specifically to hide their identities and make them difficult to prosecute. Basically this means everyone can show up with little fear of repercussions, which means people feel safer showing up and those who show up feel safer becoming violent or destructive, and it attracts people who don't believe in the cause at all and just want to cause problems without becoming the target of a manhunt when they brake stuff.

They're also, not doing terrorist attacks. Protests yes, violent protests yes, killing random civilians to scare people, no.

Buying into the "antifa is the radical left thing" is buying into a Fox News/DNC talking point that they're using to try to turn people away from the actual left, because both groups are fundamentally opposed to what the left actually wants (primarily a properly regulated economy, pullling out of dumb wars, environmental protection, and social programs like universal healthcare) because all of them stand to hurt their corperate masters bottom lines.

EDIT: Even more aggravating, the corperate democrats have *fully* embraced the actual radical left, and they've embraced the most authoritarian aspect of it, because it lets them claim to be better on social issues and focus on that instead of the economic and quality of life problems most voters care about more because it impacts them more.
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Fexelea

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#3143
What you are calling the "regular left" has been the centre for quite a while. The "radical left" is the one being promoted the most as the "progressive" ones that should be at the forefront of left ideologies, and why everyone taking the test on political compass is surprised at their results. The new reality of the news doesn't match the ongoing reality of the populous and the world. And to everyone who isn't in that Group they sound as crazy as the nazis.

Regardless of whatever you want to assert Antifa very much proclaims to be on the left... an anarchist left, sure, but interviewed members specifically claim to want socialist and communist policies implemented.

They are terrorists. They specifically seek to terrorise those they disagree with via violence, and beat them into submission. They promote that they will shut down things they don't like, and want to bring about change by scaring people of what happens without their desired change.
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#3144
Editing history by defacing and removing monuments is Monumentally foolish. It does not work in the long run, and serves to try and obfuscate the truth. But when it gets to the point where a person is censored because of their name, the offended and those empowering the overly sensitive Snowflakes need an ice cold splash of reality: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ear ... f4279db347

This is why Trump won, and with hope, will win again.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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Castielle

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#3145
Elhanan wrote:Editing history by defacing and removing monuments is Monumentally foolish. It does not work in the long run, and serves to try and obfuscate the truth. But when it gets to the point where a person is censored because of their name, the offended and those empowering the overly sensitive Snowflakes need an ice cold splash of reality: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ear ... f4279db347

This is why Trump won, and with hope, will win again.

And that is why I stopped reading ESPN...

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Forum_Pirate

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#3146
Anywhere else in the developed world you might be right, I wouldn't know, but in America that's the left. Obama and Bill Clinton are the center. Obama ran as left (for us) but didn't actually govern that way most of the time.

No, *destroying* the monuments is stupid. They should absolutely exsist, In museums, where their actions and the reasons such statues exsist (a lot of them werent even put up intill the 1900s, primarily as a way to intimidate their minority populations) can be put in proper context. Symbols of oppression do not belong in public parks and outside courthouses, as that's basically the opposite of what those places are supposed to stand for. It's not erasing the past, it's removing monuments built to celebrate and glorify some of the worst parts and ideas of our past. Just like the confederate flag should absolutely be flown a virginia civil war monuments but not over state capitals.

(Also, ESPNs broadcast standards are just generally ridiculous, they do similarly stupid things with videogames all the time)
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Fexelea

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#3147
Obama sold the hard-left. He was lying, but still that's what he was selling. Hillary probably lying too but her message was certainly aligned with the "crazy people" per your eyes and ours.

I saw this and cracked me up because it's somewhat what we're all experiencing.

Image

Anyway, back on topic! I've been following the Afghan situation as best I can - I hope that the US military getting back on its proper objective can lead to some improvements. That country is such a sad story :(
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Elhanan

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#3148
What some call symbols of oppression, others may see as representations of different ideals; freedom being among them. The right to expression does not cease where the politically correct wish it to stop; it belongs to all unless it endangers the public. A statue is unlikely to fall on someone unless they go out of their way to move it.

Never imagined that the Thought Police would come from those that tried so hard to promote free speech, thought, etc (eg; Berkeley College).
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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#3149
It's PUBLIC property. The right to expression has *literally* nothing to do with it. If you wanna put one such statue on your own property, go ahead. Also if you think statues of slave owning traitors who fought a war to defend slavery stand for freedom, you have problems. I know the circumstances of the civil war aren't quite so simple as was taught, but that's still the net result of what happened.

@fex Again, they're anarchists. I can't give interviews with individual members much weight, because anarchy has little bearing on left or right. Unless they're a big group of morons who don't actually know what anarchy as a political ideal actually is and are just facists in disguise, but in that case why are they simply destroying stuff instead of actively trying to take over the governments and force their policies?
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Lich180

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#3150
Antifa reminds me of the little kids in "Talladega Nights", that racing movie with Will Ferrell.

"ANARCHY! ANARCHY!" "I don't know what it is, but I like it!"

I feel like tearing down statues is a slippery slope to outright banning anything offensive, or anything that can be deemed offensive. I don't see why people get so upset at nativity scenes at Christmas, or menorah, or any other religious symbol. They aren't causing you harm in any way, other than your own conceived notions. It's absurd.
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