Anything without a home!
 310 
Reply  
Avatar

Forum_Pirate

Duke's Archivist
Judge

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: International waters
Souls: 22,906.50
Posts: 11906
Reputation: 387
Wiki Edits: 18
#3091
Should I be the one to point out that making the claim that venezuala failed because of socialist policies is, uh, an "incomplete" view of the situation? They were quite successful under socialist policies for a while. Like, their entire economy was based on oil exports and then the oil price tanked an took their economy with it. That's enough to destory any country. In fact if you want to make that claim I can turn it around and say it only failed in the first place because, despite its socialist policies, it continued to operate within a capitalist global economy.

Now, if I made that argument it would be incomplete to the point of reflecting a great deal of ignorance about the many complexities of the situation that I'm not qualified to understand, which is why I'm not making it.

Similarly, Detroit was destoryed *by* capitalism in the first place. If companies didn't move all their factories to places with cheaper labor so they could make more money, the motor city wouldn't have collapsed (at least, not in the way it actually did.) Combine that with the grave mistake of taking out the leader of a giant gang the actually served to keep the other gangs in check and creating a power vaccume that resulted in the current (often literal) gang warfare to fill that vaccume (along with a bunch of other things) and you end up with current detroit. Unrestrained Capitalism is not the end all be all to creating a society that works for the benefit of it's people. Remember the 2008 crash? And the great depression? And that time back in the 90s when nobody could afford health insuraance so the govenmnent had to step in with the employer mandate? Unrestrained and improperly regulated capitalism.

The question isn't "which economic philospphy should I blindly adhere to and give all the credit for good while ignoring the obvious negatives as if they weren't a result" the question is "how do we structure our economy to provide the best possible lives for the largest number of people, and how do we compensate for whatever problems arise?" Spoiler alert, this is going to involve "socialist" policies like universal healthcare (and quite possible something like a universal basic income as it is simply a matter of time until robots take all, or at least the overwheoming majority of, the jobs,) and it's going to involve "capitalist" policies like money, the division of labor and some form of a free market.
"Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions"
- George W. Bush
VIP
Avatar

Castielle

The Hand
The Hand of God

Masochist

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 221,440.02
Posts: 3375
Reputation: 232
Wiki Edits: 40424
#3092
100% pure Capitalism is definitely not the best practice. In regards to what you said about Detroit, Globalism played a large part in that and lack of government regulation, such as tariffs, did as well. This is one thing Trump is trying to change so that large companies cannot just export jobs to the cheapest labor market without losing profit when they import. We don't need 100% Capitalism, or Socialism, we need something that uses the best parts of both.

Cas
The difference between Left Wing and Right Wing is that Left Wing people what everyone to finish the race the same. Right Wing people want everyone to start the race the same.
Shop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Forum_Pirate

Duke's Archivist
Judge

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: International waters
Souls: 22,906.50
Posts: 11906
Reputation: 387
Wiki Edits: 18
#3093
He's claiming that he is, but then he's doing things like trying to sneak provisions of the TPP that he campaigned so hard against into the NAFTA "renegotiation," like the one that would allow companies to sue for "loss of future profits" because of govenment regulations. That is what he's claimed he's doing, but that's not what he's actually been doing. Or he's doing it very badly.

The closest he seems to have done is put language in the draft that would give the US the right to impose tarrifs if a NAFTA import "substansially damages the local industry," and credit where it's due that is a good thing, but there are a number of problems with particular phrasing and general strategy (like the industries that are basically dead already and how even if they were made to comeback they'll resspond by automating which only slows the rate of jobloss, not reverses the trend.)
"Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions"
- George W. Bush
Avatar

mothereternity

Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:32 am
Location: Canadia
Souls: 2,850.00
Bank: 1,250.00
Posts: 973
Reputation: 75
Wiki Edits: 893
#3094
EldritchImagination wrote:
I kind of surprised (but not really) how long this discussion is going on. I'm starting to wonder if I should start taking bets for who gives up first, or if someone does something warranting a ban.


I honestly hope it doesn't come to that.
Bound to the FEXUS

Even in darkness we need the light. Forum Rules to guide you thru t2/forum-guidelines/
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

TSMP

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Squirming with Insight

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:42 am
Souls: 43,687.50
Posts: 6674
Reputation: 674
Wiki Edits: 561
#3095
githcheater wrote:I can't believe I attempted to defend Silky several months ago ...

I'm sincerely doubting this really is SilkyGoodness.

For one, he doesn't argue like him at all. In hindsight, none of the posts made by this person recently seem to be intended as arguments, but rather as (admittedly well-veiled) barbs towards the people responding to him while egging them on to keep them replying. Nitpicking on Fex's grammar troubles without actually addressing her argument, picking on my own insecurities with the 'naivety ' thing, and so on for the last twenty or so pages.

This is nothing at all like the smiling face of the person I thought of as a friend. It's gone far enough that I won't actually believe it's him unless he posts a new picture of himself (even if as an avatar like the previous one).

But, in either case, there wouldn't be a happy answer.
Avatar

qeter

Insomniac
Sinner

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:44 pm
Souls: 50.00
Bank: 4,558.00
Posts: 1004
Reputation: 28
Wiki Edits: 5
#3096
TSMP wrote:
githcheater wrote:I can't believe I attempted to defend Silky several months ago ...

I'm sincerely doubting this really is SilkyGoodness.

For one, he doesn't argue like him at all. In hindsight, none of the posts made by this person recently seem to be intended as arguments, but rather as (admittedly well-veiled) barbs towards the people responding to him while egging them on to keep them replying. Nitpicking on Fex's grammar troubles without actually addressing her argument, picking on my own insecurities with the 'naivety ' thing, and so on for the last twenty or so pages.

This is nothing at all like the smiling face of the person I thought of as a friend. It's gone far enough that I won't actually believe it's him unless he posts a new picture of himself (even if as an avatar like the previous one).

But, in either case, there wouldn't be a happy answer.

i think he has a crazy girlfriend. this is what happens when you don't obey the rules and think crazy could be fun.
VIP
Avatar

TSMP

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Squirming with Insight

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:42 am
Souls: 43,687.50
Posts: 6674
Reputation: 674
Wiki Edits: 561
#3097
qeter wrote:
TSMP wrote:
githcheater wrote:I can't believe I attempted to defend Silky several months ago ...

I'm sincerely doubting this really is SilkyGoodness.

For one, he doesn't argue like him at all. In hindsight, none of the posts made by this person recently seem to be intended as arguments, but rather as (admittedly well-veiled) barbs towards the people responding to him while egging them on to keep them replying. Nitpicking on Fex's grammar troubles without actually addressing her argument, picking on my own insecurities with the 'naivety ' thing, and so on for the last twenty or so pages.

This is nothing at all like the smiling face of the person I thought of as a friend. It's gone far enough that I won't actually believe it's him unless he posts a new picture of himself (even if as an avatar like the previous one).

But, in either case, there wouldn't be a happy answer.

i think he has a crazy girlfriend. this is what happens when you don't obey the rules and think crazy could be fun.

Crazy can be fun, you just have to be the crazier one so her crazy doesn't take priority.

Which would make you the crazy boyfriend, but you know.
VIP
Avatar

Castielle

The Hand
The Hand of God

Masochist

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 221,440.02
Posts: 3375
Reputation: 232
Wiki Edits: 40424
#3098
I don't know if it's him or not (I could check the IP but I haven't), but if it is, he must be pissed as hell you think it's not lol.

Cas
The difference between Left Wing and Right Wing is that Left Wing people what everyone to finish the race the same. Right Wing people want everyone to start the race the same.
Shop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

TSMP

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Squirming with Insight

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:42 am
Souls: 43,687.50
Posts: 6674
Reputation: 674
Wiki Edits: 561
#3099
Castielle wrote:I don't know if it's him or not (I could check the IP but I haven't), but if it is, he must be pissed as hell you think it's not lol.

Cas

If it is him, then... well, if he is in fact falling prey to an extremist ideology, saying such a thing as I did and basically rejecting him would be the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do. It's a known tactic of cult leaders and other brainwashers to present a welcoming and accepting atmosphere, suggest that they won't be thrown out for having "taboo" (read: uninformed) opinions, and carefully nurture and push those beliefs over the edge into radicalism. Then, when the person begins to feel like it's okay to believe such things and expresses those opinions to their other friends, they inevitably get pushed away for the blatant sociopathy, eventually leaving them with only the cult leader / radical terrorists / what have you, at which point they wholly give themselves over to the movement because they have nothing left.

The term for it is "Love Bombing", and it works all too well. It's often used to target social outcasts who are not all that wise to the world, but nevertheless intelligent enough to rationalize what they do know of it.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 888.04
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16810
Reputation: 577
Wiki Edits: 459
#3100
While working on my psych degree we had a class all about influence; in which we spent what some might call an unhealthy amount of time studying how to form a cult.
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
 310