Discuss lore and secrets of Dark Souls 3
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By Janaschi
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BobTheHollow wrote:Forgot to mention this 3) "In 1, even Gwyn, a God, and the most powerful God at that, was absorbed of all of his humanity by the original flame, and was hollowed;" He's a god, he doesn't have humanities. And the undead go hollow, the gods don't. He was burnt, not hollowed.
Is there a source for all of that? I understand that humans are verified as having been born from the dark, created or adapted by the Furtive Pygmy, but we don't know what relation the Gods have to the dark - they predate the original flame, which means that they were born from the dark, too.

As for humanity, while the Furtive Pygmy created it for humans, specifically, there is nothing stating that other races cannot utilize their benefits, nor is there anything stating that other races cannot go hollow. When we come across Gwyn, he is not just burnt, his skin and other features have taken on a sunken feature, just as hollows do, and he has lost his mind, another characteristic shared with hollows.

While that may not be proof towards my claim, the fact of the matter still remains that linking the original flame took away Gwyn's sentience, yet we're expected to believe that other beings have. That just makes no sense.
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By Janaschi
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Rakuyo wrote:Inconsistencies:
Dark Souls:
1) What, exactly, happened to Beatrice the Witch?

I don't expect much consistency from From when it comes to these random NPCs.
To me they have all the depth of a cardboard cutout of what could be an interesting character.

2) The drakes that you fight in-game, are specified as not being true dragons, and are merely descendants of the survivors. It is also stated, that the Gods took ancient dragon heads as trophies upon their defeat, and decorated their halls with them. Yet, when you arrive at Anor Londo, what do you find... not true ancient dragon skulls, but the stuffed heads of... drakes. Nothing like what you find at Aldria's Keep, which is the skeleton of a true ancient dragon.

Everlasting Dragons have heads that are too big to fit into those halls. It must have been more practical for From to use drake heads

3) How are you able to kill the fully hollowed off, permanently? When characters such as Big Hat Logan go fully hollowed, all you have to do is kill them once, and they are gone forever. Doesn't this sort of defeat the purpose of being undead, and thus, immortal?

Lore wise they can't die, but they can vanish.
Maybe they were sucked into another dimension, or reappeared as unrecognizable Hollows.

Dark Souls II:
1) In Dark Souls item descriptions, it is stated that titanite is unique to Lordran, and cannot be found anywhere else in the world. Yet in II and III, many of the enchanted titanites, have item descriptions that confirm that places such as the Melfian Magic Academy have experimented on these stones. So if the rest of the world knows about titanite, and it is the stuff of Gods, then why isn't that area being swarmed with humans? The Way of the White were experts at driving off the hollows, so I imagine it wouldn't have been terribly hard for mining corporations to pop up all over Lordran and its future iterations.

I don't think you should assume much interaction between the outside world and Lordran / Drangleic / Lothric / Boletaria / Yharnam...
The general setup is that the game area is some legendary place, where people end up because of a curse, or crisis.

Dark Souls III:
1) The Silver Knights of Lord Gwyn, were sworn to defend Anor Londo and the Gods that resided there. Ledo abandoned his post, which made sense, as even Ornstein abandoned Smough and the remaining Silver Knights to their fates. Some were even infected by the Abyss, so it makes sense that they, in their mindless state, have remained. But why have the others stayed, when the other Gods have moved on with their lives, and the last remaining God is being devoured?

The knight are mindless hollows?

2) What in the actual hell is the deal with the Lords of Cinder? Never before has this concept been seen, and now, all of the sudden, there is this completely random, out-of-the-blue ritual needed to perform, in order to gain access to the first flame. In Dark Souls, the only reason that the lord soul needed to be stitched back together, is because Gwyn wanted the test there as an insurance policy, to make sure that the next person to re-link the original flame was strong enough, and to make sure that he was left imprisoned there until that time came. But the gathering of souls part in III doesn't even apply, either, because you are allowed to do with the souls as you please, unlike in 1.

So why would the original flame, an unconscious entity similar to the Abyss, make the arbitrary decision to start reincarnating both successful and unsuccessful linkers, and then requiring their sacrifice all over again, even though their essences have already been used as cinder?

That's a big gap in the story, you're totally right.
I myself have settled on equating them with Nito, The Witch of Izalith and Gwyn.
Basically they once were champions of fire, but eventually they were corrupted.
I also have a larger encompassing theory that equates all of those with Archdemons and Great Ones.

3) Speaking of which, how are the lords and champions of ash not all hollow? In 1, even Gwyn, a God, and the most powerful God at that, was absorbed of all of his humanity by the original flame, and was hollowed; an unprecedented turn of events. When it comes to Lords of the Cinder, such as the Abyss Watchers and Yhorm, they are clearly infected by the Abyss, and so it's hard to tell if they are still sentient or not. When it comes to Aldrich, who in the hell knows, because apparently his brain resides in his stomach. But then there's Ludleth, Lothric, and Lorian. These three are still sentient, and are able to make independent thought. Ooooookay.

They may be Hollow. To this day I'm not entirely sure about what the term "hollow" means.

4) In Dark Souls II, the Purging Monument simply restored your humanity. It did not actually lift the curse, even though in III, for Patches, it does exactly that, and now even has the ability to return creatures back to life in exchange for souls. Where did these extra abilities suddenly come from?

What Purging Monument in DS2?
Purging STONES lift curses, it's what they do.

5) In Dark Souls, the lore specifically states that the Dark Soul was split by the Furtive Pygmy, and embodied the human race in its entirety. All humans have the Dark Soul within them, which is what allows for them to both be sentient, and to have the ability to reanimate after hollowing. Not only that, but when split, the Dark Soul never diminishes in power, which means that every human has within them a fully functional Dark Soul copy.

What are your sources for that?
It's implied that Manus is the source of all Humanity, yes.
But I've come to believe that the meaning of Humanity is closer to "human badness" than to "homo sapiens".
Humanity may have to be in interpreted as a "flaw", like a character flaw making a character "more human".
1) A shame, isn't it? - Especially when she is supposed to represent a character from the show Berserk, and then they barely did anything with her, lore-wise. There likely isn't a true answer to her ultimate fate, I just figured it would be interesting to see theories regarding her demise, and the location of her demise.

2) That makes sense, mechanically-wise. I always wondered how come Anor Londo was so small, but thinking about it, Dark Souls is an older game, and had certain limitations for its time; which makes it even more of a shame, since in its newest iteration, they actually made Anor Londo... smaller. Eh.

3) Your last point is actually a good one. A lot of hollow equipment is crap-quality, with item-descriptions stating that over time, and over a myriad of deaths, their equipment has been rendered to barely anything. It could just be that they lost their equipment, or it was thoroughly destroyed, and so now they just appear as naked hollows.

4) I'm not sure sure of that, really. Sieglinde is a great example, as she is a human, not a hollow, and yet she managed to not only track her father down in Lordran, but she also managed to conquer a great portion of what you, the PC conquers, right up until her father's ultimate demise, and she heads back home. And as I stated, item-descriptions in II confirm that certain organizations managed to get their hands on a large enough amount of titanite, in order to experiment on it all over a myriad of different elements.

Not only was she able to conquer everything leading up to Ash Lake, but she also managed to fight her way back (she cannot warp between bonfires, and she cannot attune the Homeward miracle to bonfires, either) through the Grand Archives, Anor Londo, and Sen's Fortress in order to get back to Firelink Shrine. She is a true badass, and shows that humans have the capability to conquer such a legendary land.

5) That may be, but it doesn't answer as to why the Darkmoon Knights didn't attempt to stop Aldrich or the Pontiff's forces. There's simply no evidence that they met any sort of resistance, before or after, which I sincerely hope is not due to outright lazy writing.

6) Was Nito corrupted? I'm not doubting you, by any means, he just seemed like he wanted to be left alone in Dark Souls, and is even an ally of sorts until you invade his resting place. Would love to hear some more lore regarding him, because he seems to be the one Lord that was neglected the most, story-wise, after the events of the War of the Ancients.

7) In the Shrine of Armana, there is a secret area where you can find the Purging Monument; using it restores your humanity if you've lost it.

8) I'll get back to you on that. I remember that the Furtive Pygmy used the Dark Soul to create humanity, and because of his contributions, splitting the Dark Soul amongst all of humanity, the Gods began to fear them, and places the Dark Seal upon them all. When it comes to actual sources, though, I'll need to do some research and in-game dwelling. I'll respond again once I do that.
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By Rakuyo

Right, at that shrine that never made any sense.

" rel="nofollow

A lot is uncertain about how the universe is organized.

I'm not sure if Lordran is logically adjacent to other countries, I think it's rather concealed / secluded in a World's End kind of way.

Was Nito corrupted?

I'm just following Frampt's narrative here:

"The beings who possess these souls have outlived their usefulness, or chosen the path of the wicked... Let there be no guilt - let there be no vacillation."

(Oddly this piece of dialogue was missing from the wiki)
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By Rakuyo

Dark Souls:
1)The Sealers, after sacrificing the entirety of New Londo, were successfully able to keep the Abyss at bay. Once the seal is broken, and the water has receded, it is even seen that over all of that time, the Abyss itself had receded back into the depths, where the 4 Kings and their loyal Dark Knights still resided. This begs the question: What, exactly, spreads the Abyss? Is the Abyss itself some entity that infinitely expands itself on its own, or is it solely spread by both its denizens, and those that it infects?

I sincerely doubt that flooding New Londo was the reason as to why the Abyss receded - it seems to make more sense that Kaathe's influence over the 4 Kings and their Dark Knights was responsible for the Abyss spreading in that region.

The Abyss is:
- The Darkness
- The Primordial Chaos
- an accumulation of Human Darkness
- a demon made of condensed Human Darkness
- a darkness beyond human ken (see DS3)
- The Collective Human Subconsciousness
- The Underworld / Hell

2) Are the primordial serpents a single entity? Not really a serious theory, but as we do not have a confirmed look at what they look like entirely, it's an interesting thought that these creatures are, in essence, similar creatures to the hydra.

That's actually a sound theory.
I've already collected a great number of clues pointing the snakes having a common origin / body.
Basically I believe them to be the inspiration behind the recurring caduceus pattern of the Soul universe.
The pattern also has a cultural relation to eclipses, which are linked to demon activity in Berserk.
In Souls, I also believe the caduceus to have a convoluted relation to Baphomet and Bloodborne's Oedon.
I've written quite a bit in discussing those themes, you can find the links here.

3) Is there a cycle for the chaos flame? As confirmed in III, the chaos flame is dying out, and as such, the demon race is also dying out. Similar to how humans go hollow, demons are even seen to turn into stone. So even if the original flame were to go out, would it be possible for the chaos flame to be re-linked? And as such, is it possible for demons to become the race in control? And with that in-mind, what of the profaned flame in III?

The Witch of Izalith did it once.
Sure, it could be done again.

Dark Souls II:
1) Maughlin travels to Drangeic in order to find his fortune after he turns hollow. So, what does he do? He trades in souls. When he gets enough souls, he even starts talking about taking his fortune back to his homeland, although, at this point, his hollowing is taking a toll on his mind. Does this confirm that souls are a currency for humans? Then, what about the coins that you can find? Or is he losing his mind, to the point where he cannot discern the difference between currencies anymore?

The logic behind it is quite obscure, but Souls are stated to mend a hollowing mind.
The Undead therefore hoard Souls like they're the most valuable thing in the world, in an attempt to stave off the curse.

2) The desert sorceresses, as further confirmed in III, are either still humans, or are sentient hollows. So why are they working alongside the fully hollowed, and not being attacked by them? Do they have the ability to control mindless creatures such as the undead, too?

They're at least Undead, but the logic behind it depends on how hollowing works.
For what it's worth, there's a pyromancy called Rapport, which turns mindless hollows into allies.

Dark Souls III:
1a) What happened to Siegward, after Yhorm is defeated? He does not arise as a hollow, and as a Champion of Ash, his duty is not yet fulfilled. Yet he clearly dies.
1b) What happened to Eygon? His duty was to protect his maiden, on her journey to become a proper firekeeper, and as he promised her, he would watch over her, for if she ever turned to the Abyss, he would personally kill her. He wasn't a Champion of Ash, and he wasn't a hollow. So what happened to him? I doubt he would have killed himself, as firekeepers can die, and can still be infected, so she still needed protection. Was he killed? And if so, why did he return to her old cell?
1c) Does suicide break the hollowing cycle, and grant true death? And if so, why is that the case, and why doesn't everyone just do that, when they know that they're nearing the end?

I don't know, a lot of these stories feel they've been haphazardly put together.
I very much doubt that suicide can break the hollowing cycle.

2) In the Dreg Heap, snake-like creatures are discovered, having apparently been killed after fighting with the knights of Lordran. What is their origin? They do not look like the primordial serpents, yet... they do look like the tumors growing off of the pus of man. Similar to how the humpbacks die, in order to give birth to angels, what if the pus of man is simply a step in abyssal evolution? What if men are not the true children of the abyss, but these serpents, which would explain why Kaathe has such a vested interest in its spreading?

I think they're Human Darkness amalgams, like the Pus of Man.
Which makes them part of a Darkness / Dark Blood theory I have
By Pablo990
1) In the Ringed City it is stated that the curse of becoming hollow is exclusive to humans. Gwyn was burnt, but not hollowed, as he wasn't human.
2) Soul of Cinder is the manifestation of the lords of cinder (it's not sure if it includes all the lords of cinder or only the lords that we see in DS3 and Gwyn). Lords or cinder manifestated because they didn't want the flame to be linked again.
3) The bell of the firelink shrine called the Lords of Cinder so that they would link the First flame again. They refused to do it, so the bell called the unkindled (who failed to link the first flame) as a last resource.
By Pablo990
- Lothric and Lorian are descendants of the "gods", so they are not human and can't go hollow.
- Miyazaki said that unkindleds are the ones who tried to link the first flame but failed in the attempt.