I'll start off by answering on my conclusions to three niggling questions that I have reached.

1) The dark sign and undead curse is a cycle that comes as a result of the dying of the flame and it's cause is the dark soul itself (since undeath only appears in humans who are the only ones to have fragments of the dark soul). The dark soul is trying to balance the opposing forces of light and dark, heat and cold and life and death. This may seem contradictory and some may think 'why would the dark soul try to preserve light and heat when it is the opposite of them? ', however if you go back to the origins of the dark soul it originated from the first flame just like all the other souls and is inextricably linked to it, it is it's fuel. Therefore it causes the dark sign when the flame weakens which causes humans to become undead who now can't die and have to burn humanity to remain human. This strengthens the flame and keeps it from dying out until the chosen undead burns himself as fuel for the fire (which is fated to happen eventually). In this way the Age of Fire is dependent on the dark soul (and the humans who bear it) in order to not end.

2) Gwyn and his family as well as the Witch of Izalith and her family come from the same origin as humans and were once exactly the same as the furtive pygmy, we can see in the opening cinematic that all the beings that found the Souls in the Fire where hollows who were all of the same size and appearance. What made them larger and different to humans is the soul they found, Gwyn found the light soul and the Witch found the life soul, these souls grant immense power to their immediate finder (hence they turned their finders into larger and more powerful 'god' beings) but don't have the special and more subtle power that the dark soul has. As was mentioned the 'gods' are only claimed as so because of their power and they are only gods in the minds of the people who they rule over which hints that they are no different originally than humans.

3) The primordial crystal made the dragons invulnerable (can't be killed by damage) while it was their scales that made them immortal (won't be killed by old age and time) the fact that Seath possessed the crystal and couldn't be killed by damage except after it was broken but nonetheless was researching immortality but kept failing (which turned him insane) proves this.

Thanks for reading, please feel free to criticise, correct or add.

Welcome to the Forums.

Nice explanations.

Something I would like to add to the discussion has to do with when one manually uses the Darksign. If you use the Darksign without Dying, you lose all of your souls and humanity but you will not Hollow, it acts like a pricey Homeward bone. This seems to show that it is death that causes one to hollow while the Darksign merely siphons souls and keeps an undead connected to the bonfire.

feel free to fold it in to your explanations however you wish.

Interesting I didn't notice that before. So the 'accursed' darksign is not what's causing undead but it's the dying of the fire which is causing undeath.

The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow.

Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls.

It seems that the Darksign is a symptom of Undeath, but it can be debatable.

Hello there, new to posting since today. Thanks for having me and sorry for possible flaws

It makes sense though. Using the Darksign or "dying" whether or not using the Darksign drains your souls and humanity instead of your mind. I think once an Undead thus lost all his souls and humanity, and has no more "alternative" for fire fuel it'll go hollow with the flame using the accursed as final fuel option.

Feel free to criticise or add please

SoulSeeker wrote:I'll start off by answering on my conclusions to three niggling questions that I have reached.

1) The dark sign and undead curse is a cycle that comes as a result of the dying of the flame and it's cause is the dark soul itself (since undeath only appears in humans who are the only ones to have fragments of the dark soul).

2) Gwyn and his family as well as the Witch of Izalith and her family come from the same origin as humans and were once exactly the same as the furtive pygmy, we can see in the opening cinematic that all the beings that found the Souls in the Fire where hollows who were all of the same size and appearance. What made them larger and different to humans is the soul they found, Gwyn found the light soul and the Witch found the life soul, these souls grant immense power to their immediate finder (hence they turned their finders into larger and more powerful 'god' beings) but don't have the special and more subtle power that the dark soul has. As was mentioned the 'gods' are only claimed as so because of their power and they are only gods in the minds of the people who they rule over which hints that they are no different originally than humans.

3) The primordial crystal made the dragons invulnerable (can't be killed by damage) while it was their scales that made them immortal (won't be killed by old age and time) the fact that Seath possessed the crystal and couldn't be killed by damage except after it was broken but nonetheless was researching immortality but kept failing (which turned him insane) proves this.

Thanks for reading, please feel free to criticise, correct or add.

Hi there, i've found some issues with your theory.

1) In dark souls 2 we find giants, but from what we know from Ds1 and Ds3, the giants there look quite different. If you compare the differences, the only explanation is that the giants are hollowed. They don't talk, only scream, attack with fury and madness and would even rip their own arm off and use it as a weapon. Compare that to the "non hollowed" giants, who talk and befriend humans, who provide them with weapons and funny wooden sculptures.

2) I agree, deities are nothing but powered up humans. We learn as much from the newer souls games.

3) If the crystal was able to make dragons immortal then why did they die? The crystal wasn't destroyed in the first age because Seath was able to use it for his own immortality (which he did achieve by the way, at the cost of his mind). Their stone scales made them immortal. But I don't believe they were ever invulnerable. They were mighty and strong, and nothing came close to being strong enough to harm their strong defensive scales.

After lightning pierced stone, fire and death were rather effective against the dragons, proving that only the scales made the difference between immortal and dragon-kebabs.

With Seathe, wasn't it the theft of the Primordial Crystal that made the Dragons Vulnerable to be killed.

There are multiple forms of Immortality. One being unable to naturally die but can be killed. The Primordial Crystal seemed to be insurance to prevent such a case.

Given That Nito administers the First Death it makes me wonder if there was n Death before he began to do so.

Interesting. A few things:

1) Undead dragons, dogs and rats who appear undead, Gwyn who looks hollow when you fight him, all of this points to non-humans becoming undead as well. Of course, Gwyn could just be a case of feeding his soul to the First Flame and reverting to the state before he found his Lord Soul, or it could just be a symptom of becoming a Lord of Cinder.

2) Fair enough, although only Gwyn and his children are ever referred to as gods. The Witch of Izalith and her children are called witches, and Nito is referred to by his title ("First of the Dead" or "Gravelord") but never quite given a species name. Miyazaki does say something interesting in an interview once, where someone asks if the player's Chosen Undead would be able to produce a child with Quelana and he said that'd be like bestiality because they're a different species. (Japanese-only radio interview)

3) Big Hat Logan calls Seath "a true Undead, different from ourselves. His wounds close promptly and no mortal blow affects him, granting true insulation from death". I would assume this also grants protection from age, given however old Seath had to be by then.

855522 dn1nd wrote:Welcome to the Forums.

Nice explanations.

Something I would like to add to the discussion has to do with when one manually uses the Darksign. If you use the Darksign without Dying, you lose all of your souls and humanity but you will not Hollow, it acts like a pricey Homeward bone. This seems to show that it is death that causes one to hollow while the Darksign merely siphons souls and keeps an undead connected to the bonfire.

feel free to fold it in to your explanations however you wish.

Using the Dark Sign does not cost humanity, or even the state of being human. Only souls are lost.

This actually bugs me a bit, since it's treated like you forced yourself to die and rise again, but doesn't have all the effects of doing so. I'm not sure if this is a story thing, or just a gameplay convenience thing. Given that the same effect appears in Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls under different names and with different explanations, I think its safe to assume its gameplay effects can't be taken as lore.

6848936 dn1nd wrote:With Seathe, wasn't it the theft of the Primordial Crystal that made the Dragons Vulnerable to be killed.

There are multiple forms of Immortality. One being unable to naturally die but can be killed. The Primordial Crystal seemed to be insurance to prevent such a case.

Given That Nito administers the First Death it makes me wonder if there was n Death before he began to do so.

I'm under the impression that "Nito, First of the Dead" refers to him, either as leader of the dead or literally as the first dead thing, and he was called by this title from the moment he found his soul.

The Primordial Crystal isn't mentioned in the intro cinematic, and it isn't directly stated that the Crystal needed to be stolen before Gwyn's lightning could harm the dragons. Of course, given it's properties, it certainly would've served as a defense against lightning or other weak points and would need to be stolen before Gwyn could affect... one dragon? All dragons? Just how many people can benefit from the Primordial Crystal's effects, and if it can apply to more than one being why aren't all the gods and Seath reveling in that ****? I'm curious now.

You guys talk about the primordial crystal a lot like it just has an immortal aura that makes everything untouchable, but don't forget seath had to go through years of archives and experiments until he could actually use the cristal for immortality, and not without using the power of crystals on himself changing his appearance and apparently making him blind.

When the war was fought, I don't think the dragons could use it to become invulnerable, if they could then why would Seath struggle for so long to make it work on himself? The scales surely can't be the reason why dragons could randomly use a crystal for immortality? Nothing else is different between Seath and his kin.

What do you think?

@tsmp,

When I mentioned using the Darksign and it consuming your Humanity, I was referring to the Soft Humanity held in the Counter, not the being in Human/Revived form.

Even says in the description it takes your humanity.

The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go hollow.
Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls

I just loaded and tested this in DS1 and It does take your humanity when you use the Darksign.


The issue with the Primordial Crystal id we can only speculate on its significance. We do not know exactly how it grants invulnerability or even how many can be affected.