Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
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lordherpie

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#1
When DS remastered comes out i am planning to play trough all 3 games focussing in lore-hunting;
I plan to go deeper into the lore than i ever did, and i plan to do so to unify all theories i have thought up in the many hours i played dark souls, watched lore video's and spend time here on the forums.

The grand theory i have right now is based on the theory that frampt and kaathe are in it together.
The basis for that is as follows:

It is widely accepted that Frampt is manipulating the player trough the fabrication of a the chosen undead myth, an elaborate plot to guide the player into doing his bidding.
The thorough explorer though, finds a second snake (kaathe) who presents a very different version of events and wants the player to let the fire fade to usher in an age of dark, an age of man where you could be the lord of hollows.
However, they both want you to kill gwyn, and as dark souls 2 and 3 prove... whatever you choose, nothing changes.

My personal belive is that BOTH are myths that are designed to manipulate the player...
the fact that nothing changes, and the the only tangible outcome of Dark souls 1; namely the death of the lords by the hands of the player, are good enough evidence for me.

What is missing though is solid motivation for the snakes to do what they do.
So this is all a bit more speculative.
I think it is most likely that it started out as a plot of the snakes to remove the dragons from the world. now i don't have a lot to support this, but i think there is at least some material in the game that supports this theory (some problems to though).

most strongly:

the first flame, the lord souls and the resulting war against the dragons seems to me to be a product of design rather than chance... I mean; the lords happen to end up with exactly the set of powers that is needed to kill the dragons. gwyn strips the scales with lightning, nito unleashes death and decease, and the witch burns their homes... a bit to convenient for me.
Also; the fading of the flame could suggest that whoever designed the flame, made sure it wouldnt last forever, and the world would return to gray...

yes... gray... Because i think the age of dark is a lie... think about it, darkness doesnt embody anything. dark is nothing more than the absence of light, cold is nothing more than the absence of heat... an age where light and warmth didnt exist...that was the age of ancients...

big assumptions and heavy speculative, i realise.

to me it seems obvious that the snakes would be the most likely candidates to have designed this grand plan, but i also believe something went wrong... and i am thinking either one or two things might have caused to plan to fail.

1) gwyn linking the fire; if the snakes planned to restore the world the way it was, but without dragons, this might have been an unforseen complication.
2) The discovery of the dark soul; it was overlooked by the first people to claim a soul from the flame, and its existence remained hidden for some time. the nature of that soul is different... it might not actually represent anything, just the absence of light, life and death... its really nothing. To me it seems only logical that something of this nature could only be found when the other souls had been taken already.
When the flame faded, and the power of the lords slowly faded with it, the dark soul grew and spread... not as a self-existing power, but in its nature to embody the absense of everything else. wether this soul was never ment to be found, or not doenst even matter... the fact that it was shattered and shared between humanity complicates the return of this soul to the flame.

I think frampt is tasked with recovering the lord souls from gwyn, nito and the witch, and kaathe with recovering as much as possible from the dark soul. towards the same end... the flame must fade. to me it seems though as if they are just improvising and that the grand plan hasnt been perfected yet... they seem to prioritize the removal of the old lords, and to help the player become the new lord. and no matter which ending you pick... you have shown that you are easily manipulated... a good start for the snakes to advance their plot.
i think DS3 lord of hollows ending seems to be the perfect ending for the snakes.

This is the basis for which i will try to find prove, or contradiction in my next playtrough, but id like to here if you find proof as well, or know of something that contradicts all of this. what stories that we encounter in the first 3 games would directly fit with this theory, and which ones contradict it?

EDIT; i actually have a lot more on this subject, and i will certainly provide more if someone has material that fits or contradicts my own theories.
I also have many questions and stories that don't seem to fit well, or need more information to fit them well... for example; Seathe the scaless.. he could be a contender for the one who designed the flame, but for the most part his role doesnt seem to fit my theory very well, because i have a hard time linking him to the snakes, and to put him in my story without ties to the snake would seem ... inelegant...
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skarekrow13

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#2
I'll just toss out one thought here.

The death of the Lords is necessary for either goal so that's not really strange. First and foremost, the door is locked unless you have them and both ends require access to the First Flame. Digging into each ending...

Link the Fire: Gwyn is essentially a failing battery that needs to be replaced. There's no point rummaging around the drawer for a crappy replacement. They want the strongest next battery possible, so killing the Lords and powerful beings and taking their souls to become stronger is key. The goal is to have the next person be as close to Gwyn's strength as possible.

Fire Fades: This ties more into the nature of the "prophecy" of the Chosen Undead, but essentially despite Gwyn being a shell of his former self he's still one of the strongest beings left. In order to gain total control of the fire to turn your back on it you need to be able to beat Gwyn. Obtaining whatever Lord Soul fragments you can is the only way to guarantee that. Also, there's some likelihood that many of the foes you take down along the way would choose to restart the age of Fire/Gods. By killing them you remove anyone who could possibly challenge the decision last minute. There's a reason you walk out unchallenged and it's because there are no more challengers.

The Prophecy: We used to chat about this a ton and the conclusion myself and a decent few others came to is that the prophecy is "real" but it's nothing more than playing the odds. A parallel would be the Highlander series' tagline "there can be only one." That's not true at all actually. If the immortals declared peace then there could be as many as they wanted. Think of the awesome things a band of immortal beings could do if they set aside their weapons and worked on something bigger. Instead, there's vague allusions to a "prize" if you're the last one standing. The prophecy of there being one is correct, but mainly in that encourages competition to make it happen. It promises a conclusion to a group of people who otherwise have none. The idea is to make the goal sound like destiny is at play, when in reality it's merely motivating the various immortals to fight. The undead are almost perfectly in the same boat. You can sit around and lose your memory/identity/purpose or you can play the Chosen Undead Sweepstakes. Are you the one? Keep killing and find out!

Or in short, the prophecy is real because they know SOMEONE will eventually take the bait and fulfill it. It doesn't make a difference who it is in the end either. There's basically only one path (killing the Lords to access the flame) which will leave whoever it is with a similar power as any other person who managed to do it. The only gamble is which direction the undead will choose.
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Rakuyo

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#3
It is widely accepted that Frampt is manipulating the player trough the fabrication of a the chosen undead myth, an elaborate plot to guide the player into doing his bidding.


Widely accepted? Don't kid yourself! Most people believe that everything is as it seems, and that Frampt's a good guy.

I've even heard people claiming that the Usurpation of Fire is completely unrelated to the Dark Lord ending, because the details are slightly different.

I myself believe in the credibility of the twin snake conspiracy theory, but proving the theory is another matter altogether.

If you haven't already, read some of my pages, as they contain numerous clues supporting your thesis.

https://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/The+Mysteries+of+Cainhurst+Garb+&+Architecture+(Lore)+by+Rakuyo#28

https://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/ ... +by+Rakuyo (look for ''Regarding Serpents and Dragons'')
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lordherpie

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#4
At skarekrow:
well, this actually partially aligns with my views. this mainly differs from my own standpoint in how i defined it. If the prophecy you described was a design with the sole purpose of manipulating an undead towards a certain goal (or goals), it fits my explanation of events. and correct me if im wrong, but your take on things still leaves this open to my way of interpreting events, right?

The only thing i am questioning in your version of events is the true reason we had to acces the kiln.
1 thing is certain, we needed to kill gwyn, and we needed to kill the other lords to reach him with the lordvessel (a device i hope to find out more about in my following playtroughs). since i am coming from a point where i think that however created the flame, ultimatly wants the world to go back to the way it was before the age of fire, i think the way to restore the flame is by returning the souls to it.

i think the main evidence for this is that the fire seems to want balance, it doesnt take everything it can get... gwyn still had much power left, why didnt the flames consume him whole? i think because the flame needs balance... and all the lord souls are counterbalanced by the dark soul.
I know this might sounds counter-intuitive, because dark would balance only light right? i beleive differently...
Dark is the absence of light
and immortality is the absence of life and death.
So the dark soul embodies that, i believe. immortality, darkness and cold (which will probably become relevent when i start investigating the painted worlds and the profane flame in more detail). the story of the profaned flame seems especially relevent to this take on events, since it has a lot to tell about the nature of fire, and features another linking of the fire that had an unforseen effect that fits my theory, namely Yhorm burning the people of the capital to death with his sacrifice... that flame as well seemed more interested in dark souls...

long story short: the flame can only absorb life, death and light if it is in balance this with dark. (also a reason for me to theorize that the initial finding of the dark soul might have never been intended, but might have been an unforseen complication or a design flaw of the flame).

At rakuyo:
On the subject of widely accepted: okee, didnt know that, but that would be the easiest way out. Just believe frampt, do his bidding... Not much need to go lorehunting at all then :)
I came across some of that text before, and will revisit when my theory becomes more concrete, thansk!

As for proving it all... If i manage to fit every major event in the series into a story line that makes sense in my head i will be satisfied... I will start a a cult and apply for the twin snake conspiricists to be reckognized as a legitimate religion in the netherlands (where i live) :)
Last edited by lordherpie on Mon May 14, 2018 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#5
There Is A Certain Hidden Player That We Discussed That Has Always Helped Humans/Undead And Even Developed The Occult Items To Kill The Gods. I Wouldn't Doubt If The Snakes Were In Cahoots With Velka, Either Protecting Her Or Seeking Out Her Revenge.

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skarekrow13

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#6
There's actually a huge issue with the fire wanting balance though. The first game's opening scene details the flame coming into existence as the creation story for the universe as it currently is. Fire and Dark are considered directly in opposition to each other. The gray world of dragons and archtrees is actually the world of balance and predates the world of fire. The second game really spins off into the concept that as the world changes, the more it stays the same and toys around with the idea that the current cyclic universe will continue "as is" no matter what (dark or fire). The third game also hints at that concept. When you choose darkness in one of the endings (or commit to it at least by conspiring with a certain someone), you're told that even in complete darkness the person sees flickers of light returning.

Why doesn't the fire greedily devour Gwyn at once? Because he's strong enough for a slow burn. It's why the Soul of Cinder in game 3 exists. After Gwyn they hint that those who linked the fire were less and less satisfying. To do a full restart of the age of fire they need all hands on deck. No more half measures, everyone who has a connection to the fire needs to come back or it'll fail, possibly for good. The plot of the game revolves around "collecting" the last few holdouts (Yhorm, Princes, Aldritch, Watchers) via murder and bringing their souls to be integrated with the SoC to give the fire a full restart. Yhorm gives us a good example of a less than perfect linking of the fire as his caused a selective incineration. His linking was not like the others.

The endings hold up really well to this model.

Link the Fire: You've done it! You've collected all the remnants of Gwyn/Lords/First Flame and provided a full restart. We know it will fade again in time

Let the Firekeeper remove the last spark: Darkness reigns (here is where she hints that sparks are in the future though).

Kill the firekeeper: Hardest one to pinpoint, but looks to be similar to linking the fire

Usurpation of Fire: Most explanation here. This requires you to obtain loads of darkness to make you strong enough to literally take the flame for yourself. The idea is that the flame will still exist but for a different purpose. Two MAJOR things to note in this ending. The first is that it may not actually go to full darkness. The screen goes black but because the player character acts as a screen wipe. It does not fade to black like the dark ending where the keeper removes the flame to let it die. Secondly, the "dark sign" in the sky is wreathed in red or fire every single time it's shown. Except in this ending. In this ending you are essentially getting enough darkness to match or control the fire and not be consumed by it. Like mixing acids and based in the right quantity to balance them. I mention this because this ending is literally combining the dark with the fire in equal measure or thereabouts. The dark sign in the sky turns to...you guessed it...GRAY. Fire and Dark didn't exist when the world was balanced (dragons and archtrees). That world was gray. Combining them again (super secret ending for the third game where we were promised some form of resolution) gives us a gray world again.

So that's a really long way of explaining that fire doesn't want balance. Fire wants more fire. Darkness wants more darkness. It's only by forcing them to coexist that we achieve balance.

For full disclosure I'm biased to this concept. We had a thread where we tried to predict how the third game could actually provide us with a different outcome as both 1 and 2 give us two options which we know just restart the cycles anew. I predicted a return to the gray world before the game was even released so it's possible I'm hunting for evidence. To my credit though, the exact thing I predicted occurs (joining darkness with fire) and it has visual evidence of the exact thing I predicted (dark sign in the sky turns gray which is the only time it happens).
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lordherpie

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#7
For full disclosure I'm biased to this concept. We had a thread where we tried to predict how the third game could actually provide us with a different outcome as both 1 and 2 give us two options which we know just restart the cycles anew. I predicted a return to the gray world before the game was even released so it's possible I'm hunting for evidence.


Don't worry about that, thats exactly what i am doing... shamelessly :D

There's actually a huge issue with the fire wanting balance though. The first game's opening scene details the flame coming into existence as the creation story for the universe as it currently is. Fire and Dark are considered directly in opposition to each other. The gray world of dragons and archtrees is actually the world of balance and predates the world of fire.


This is not an issue for me... our differences here are more... philosophical... i think we actually beleive the same thing, but define it differently...
I also believe the gray world is balance... one that is upset by the creation of the flame or by the taking of the lordsouls from that flame.

another difference is our interpretations of the endings, but once again we both beleive the world will end in gray with the usurper ending... i just don't beleive there ever existed the possibility of an age of dark.

Its our philosophical differences that lead me to believe differently than you, not ingame evidence. for example; your sentence "Fire and Dark are considered directly in opposition to each other" very well fits my way of seeing things to, but in a different way; fire is everything, darkness is nothing. what we call darkness i think is nothing more than the void that is left... but this doesnt have to contradict that this void is in direct opposition of the fire, one is the direct result of the (absence of the) other.
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skarekrow13

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#8
The game provides way too much evidence of darkness being tangible and explicit for me to get behind that.
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lordherpie

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#9
skarekrow13 wrote:The game provides way too much evidence of darkness being tangible and explicit for me to get behind that.


thats okee, im not looking to convince anyone, just looking for some ideas other people have to expand upon my own theory :)
your contribution to this is valued, despite our differences. :00014:
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skarekrow13

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#10
I can respect that. We all come away with something different which is one of the better aspects of the series.
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