Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
1 
Reply  

lordherpie

Regular
Battle Tested

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 597.00
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
#1
Hey folks, i need some help on Velka.

in preparation of replaying the series with the realse of DS remastered im trying to construct the story of dark souls with what ive learned from the 3 games for as far as that is even possible :D.

Now there has been quite some speculation on who Velka is, and what role in the universe is. speculation, because very little is actually known about her. ive been reading here and there, but im getting confused by all the scattered bits of information and speculation.
anyone here that made a study out of her that can link interesting articles or can share his/her own theories?

I am mostyl interested in answering the following. Even if it needs heavy speculation, the more theories, the better... im looking for a theorie that fits my personal interpretation of the events that are described in the trilogy (thats right... trilogy, feel free to speculate using 'evidence' from DSII and DSIII).

questions:

'why is velka described as a god if she doesnt have a lord soul'
'what are her origins since if she doesnt have alord soul and isnt human, it doesnt seem like her existence is linked to the first flame?'
'why is she feared'
'she is linked to the painted world, but only trough symbolism... what is the relevance of velka when it comes to the painted world(s?)'

I know many think she isnt a very relevant character in the series, but i feel that a character that is feared by the lords without sharing the same power (souls from the flame) must have some relevance, and if she doesnt... i wanna make something up that at least has loose ties to the story of the DS trilogy.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,136.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16922
Reputation: 586
Wiki Edits: 459
#2
I can't answer all of those but I'll take a crack at a few:

'why is velka described as a god if she doesnt have a lord soul'
There's a difference between "lord" and "god" in the Souls universe. If you bring in DSII lore (which you should, so kudos for recognizing that) they're more blunt than the other two games. I think it's the Evlana description in the one ring where you can select a patron deity where it's spelled out. Essentially, "god" is a title that can be placed on any powerful being. They further state that in her case the rank of deity comes after the passage of time where history embellishes the person's feats. Velka then could have any origin. "God" or "Goddess" simply means "powerful being called a deity."

'what are her origins since if she doesnt have alord soul and isnt human, it doesnt seem like her existence is linked to the first flame?'
It's important to note that the first flame events are only the creation story for the series. They sparked (pun intended) the first wave of powerful non-dragon beings. But like most mythologies, there's always layers to the pantheon. Gwyn for example was the first "god" in his family, but his offspring are also considered deities and have similar status by virtue of their lineage and would be a second tier of powerful beings from his first. The same could be said of The Witch of Izalith. She has a bunch of daughters and one son that would be a second tier of beings. A ring was created for the son (Ceaseless Discharge) to ease his suffering. The events of the Bed of Chaos going haywire caused him to become the giant creature we find him as, and changed two daughters into spider demons creating a tertiary layer to this group. The loss of the ring spawned the Centipede Demon who is a lot like a demigod under this model.

Long story short, unless they tell us about a character's origin, the title of a deity is essentially meaningless. The origin could be anything. The humanoid depictions we find suggest she was probably part of the same race that found lord souls and ascended into greater beings, but probably had a different path. Note that she's not the only non-Gwyn god as Gwynevere ran off with a flame god we only get a name on. Basically, there's other gods with unknown back stories. I tend to think of Gwyn as more a royal family, and Velka and Flann the Flame God just come from different families and found different avenues to power.
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon

lordherpie

Regular
Battle Tested

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 597.00
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
#3
okee, i am willing to except Velka as simply 'a powerful entity'.
But that rises the question what the origin of her power could be. seeing as the lords label her as dangerous, it must be quite formidable.

what sources of power do we know of in the dark souls universe besides the lord souls and the dragons?
or could she be related to the lords, dragons or somehow have gotten a hold of a significant piece of a lord soul.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,136.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16922
Reputation: 586
Wiki Edits: 459
#4
Humanity/darkness would be the other biggest one, starting with the Furtive Pygmy. Manus' power is a good example of that and it's seen in spades in DSII with the sisters. Dark Magic and hexes draw from this power.

Sorcery would be another major one. Seath, Oceiros, Logan, Sages. This is power rooted in knowledge and the will. This is a bit different in that it's not exactly refuting the other powers, but is a path for those who can't/won't tap into Lord Souls or darkness.

Dragons seem to be a reflection of equilibrium or a more natural power source. However, there are allusions to even more nature based power sources. The Giants and their connection to trees/nature is a good example.

The Witch of Izalith acquired a Lord Soul, but prior to that she was known for a different kind of fire than the first flame. It's possibly an offshoot rather than a distinctly different power source, but notable nonetheless.

The sorcery in Oolacile is based on the power of light and time, and is similar to sorcery but a distinct offshoot of that as well.

In Dark Souls III, there's a new church in town that draws powers from a more traditionally angelic source.

It's also noteworthy that the Lord Souls act more as catalysts to further innate power. Gwyn is associated with the sun/lightning. Nito is death, the With is fire. Gwyn has a son associated with the Moon instead of Sun. That is described more like innate sorcery than learned sorcery creating another branch of power.

Regarding Velka, the best guesses usually surround something similar to humanity or darkness. Her miracles were the first to have the black icons. I'm a big fan of the idea that miracles, spells, etc. are color coded to denote power source and association. To expand on that, going back to the base game looking just at miracles. Gwyn associated miracles (sun) are yellow. Gwyndolin (moon) is blue. Way of White is actually a distinct path of miracles under a different pantheon of gods. Their miracles are all white. Nito's are red and black. Manus is characterized as a dark sorcerer essentially with black and white icons. Velka has black and purple. So there's maybe something similar to the darkness with her miracles, but she is distinct. As far as I know she's the only black and purple miracle scrolls. Dark Souls II hexes have some purple shading, but not quite like Velka's miracles.

Finally, the thing you might be waiting for. In Dark Souls 3, they continue the purple/black for Vow of Silence (a Velka miracle). They add atonement to the list of purple and black miracles. Both miracles are associated with the Sable Church of Londor. When used as a name "Sable" means "Black." The church is connected to hollows. Their goal is to have someone collect enough dark sigils to be able to safely steal away the last spark of the first flame. The dark sigil is a powerful icon connected to humanity.

Connecting the dots, Velka is likely associated with humanity. However, distinct from Manus' version based on color and representation. Manus is "wild humanity" whereas Velka might be considered "controlled humanity."
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon

lordherpie

Regular
Battle Tested

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 597.00
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
#5
now that really makes sense and is absolutely material i can i use in my own personal puzzle.


i also like the idea that all the sources; like sorcery or dark, are indeed separate from the lord souls (including the dark soul), but are more likely a catalyst.
I was mostly seeing these instruments of power as inherently part of the power that came with souls, for which i have my reasons, but i need to think on that more if i were to give a meaningful reply in that discussion.

And it actually doesnt really matter if Velka's power indeed 'controlled humanity'. it could fit with my own theory's

any idea how humanity in Manus and Velka results in so much power? not everyone seems to be able to use it as such.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,136.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16922
Reputation: 586
Wiki Edits: 459
#6
Velka is pretty much all speculation. Many of the gods seem to have an innate skill or sphere of influence which is pretty common in any mythology. Like Ra didn't learn to be a Sun God, he always was. Velka's domain is actually stated to be "sin" and she's tied to justice and retribution as well. So again noting that her color scheme and depictions are distinct from Manus, it could be that she's associated with humanity or an offshoot of humanity.

With Manus, it's more about quantity. He tapped into the Abyss, which provided him with limitless darkness/humanity.

To maybe bolster the argument on Velka being more an aspect of humanity rather than humanity itself, the dark sorceries that came from Manus also have ties to emotions or other human characteristics. The homing aspects of those spells is tied to yearning if I recall correctly. Nashandra and her sisters are also tied to human aspects and draw power from the dark/humanity.
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Rakuyo

Insomniac
Sinner

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:35 am
Souls: 1,368.00
Bank: 49,521.00
Posts: 1039
Reputation: 26
Wiki Edits: 11483
#7
I've been looking at Velka very intensely of late.
Unfortunately most of what I know has assumed the form of a complex chunk of knowledge which still needs a lot of sorting out.
I intend to submit something on the matter, but I have no idea when it will be ready. Either way, here are some breadcrumbs:
'why is velka described as a god if she doesnt have a lord soul'

As Scarecrow explained, "god" is just a word that may be attached to any kind of powerful being.
But I think there's a more weighty explanation: Velka probably wasn't an advocate of Fire, it's in fact heavily implied that she was not.
Velka is heavily connected to something called "The Occult War", a plot to kill the gods, also involving Priscilla: the antithesis of life.
'what are her origins since if she doesnt have alord soul and isnt human, it doesnt seem like her existence is linked to the first flame?'
'why is she feared'

If Velka didn't come from The Lords of Fire, then it's likely that she's a spawn of The Abyss, similar to Kaathe or Nashandra.
'why is she feared'

There was a plot to kill the gods, and possibly end life as we know it.
'she is linked to the painted world, but only trough symbolism... what is the relevance of velka when it comes to the painted world(s?)'

Velka is connected to Priscilla, who's trapped in the painted world. She's also connected to Friede of The Sable Church and uncle Gael.
Velka is also connected to Corvians / Crow Demons who have some connection to the painted world.
Shop IconShop Icon

lordherpie

Regular
Battle Tested

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 597.00
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
#8
Looking forward to your full story, its still quite a mysterious character to me
Avatar

dn1nd

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:17 pm
Location: Lurking In The Archives
Souls: 0.00
Bank: 42,411.00
Posts: 4066
Reputation: 182
Wiki Edits: 116
#9
A Few Thins I Would Like To Add Or Reflect Upon.

Velka Is Mentioned As Both A Goddess And A Witch. I Find Significance In This Naming. Going By The Descriptions From The Various Games And Seeing How In DS3 Some Gods Are Knocked Down As Frauds, I Take The Term God Or Goddess As A Powerful Being Related To Gwyn If They Are Mentioned In DS1, Any Gods Mentioned In DS2 Might Merely Be Powerful Beings Thhat Were Elevated To Gods From Stories.

With That In Mind I Assume That Velka Was One Of Gwyn's People. Someone Who Was Closely Related To Him. As For Veka's Seemingly Intelligence Inclinations, I Suspect That Might Be Because She Was Referred As A Witch. Seeing As How All Other Witchs Use Hexes Or Sorceries, It Seems That They All Would Have Intelligence Inclinations. Expanding Upon This Speculation I Am Reminded Of The Rogue Witch Beatrice's Catalyst Which Was Passed Down Through Generations Of Witches To Her. It May Be Circumstantial But I Remember Conversations Wondering If Beatrice Could Have Been Descended From Velka Given That Sentence In Her Lore. It Is An Interesting Thought If Nothing More.

Thinking About DS2 And Aldia's Dialogues On The First Sin And Then What Was Revealed In DS3 In The Ringed City On How Gwyn Sinned By Putting A Seal Of Fire On Humans And Then Relinking The Flame, I Can See The Motivation That Would Have Been Required For Velka The Goddess Of Sin To Go Rogue And Develop The Occult/God Killer Weapons. Gwyn's Actions Would Have Been An Affront To Everything Velka Believed IN And Would Have Forced Velka's Hand In Supporting Any Efforts In Overthrowing Gwyn. Which Might Be Why Velka Is Seen As An Ally To Humanity.

I Could Probably Continue, But Feel This Is A Good Enough Start.

Shop Icon

lordherpie

Regular
Battle Tested

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 597.00
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
#10
This all very good stuff...

another question i want to answer is what Velka's role is in the whole 'chosen undead' myth,
Since Crows (and the large crow that carries the chosen undead from the asylum to the mainland) are associated with Velka, i assume she has a special interest in this scheme.

But... the whole chosen undead myth seems to be a scam setup by frampt and gwynns offspring (and kaathe if you believe the 2 snakes work together, which i find likely). Velka however is in conflict with Gwyndolin (correct?).

So what is the deal here... We can kill gwyndolin, so that could be something she reckognizes in us, and wants us to do to bring punishment to a sinner. but it seems so narrow in scale that it is borderline un-interesting as a subplot.

Frampt and kaathe have widely discussed motives and i myself am a fanatic complot-thinker when it comes to those 2 (in my personal interpretation of events the primordial snakes are at the base of most cataclysmic events that took place, as ive been discussing with other forum users before). Now for Velka at least one part of her goals are alligned with the snakes if we assume that she was responisble for taking the chosen undead from the asylum. She seems to wants a strong undead to pursue the prophecy of the chosen undead... why? Could she be another pawn in the grand plot of the snakes? they do seem to be manipulating all sides to progress their plans. something that is always on my mind when talking 'gods' and 'religion' is the unreliability of it all... religion is often (mis-)used as a way to control the masses... something the snakes would or could do in my world of dark souls...
1