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Rizen

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#31
4 attunement slots is standard for PvP right? If you had 4 to fill with spells as a sorcerer, pyromancer or cleric(?) what spells would you bring for PvP? I'm thinking Chaos Bed Vestiges (2 slots), fire surge and black serpent.
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#32
Rizen wrote:4 attunement slots is standard for PvP right? If you had 4 to fill with spells as a sorcerer, pyromancer or cleric(?) what spells would you bring for PvP? I'm thinking Chaos Bed Vestiges (2 slots), fire surge and black serpent.


5 is actually standard (at least at around level 100) with 30 attunment. And what spells I would bring highly depends on what I want to use/try out.

I suppose my most successful setup as a Pyromancer is CBV, Black Flame, Flame Surge and Black Serpent, as a Cleric Lightning Storm, Lightning Stake, Lightning Arrow, Sunlight Spear/a healing spell of your chosing and as a Sorcerer... Eh, I don't have a set of spells that I would consider best here.

And, even if I tell you my favorite set of spells to bring: Experiment! What I consider the best setup might not be the best to you!
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#33
@MrMoho
I'm going to respond to this as a single post, since they're getting kind of clumpy.

The main problem with dual catalysts not being viable isn't anything to do with the spells themselves, but with the mechanics of using a catalyst. It's much like trying to use two weapons in DaS3 when they aren't paired weapons. You can do it, but you don't get any particular advantage from it and you lose out on half the moveset of one of them. Likewise, using two catalysts isn't any different because you can still only use one at a time, with the only difference being that you don't have to switch them out one at a time but you give up a weapon and/or shield. Both the casting mechanics and the lock-on mechanics conspire to ruin pure caster setups, so giving up a melee weapon is tantamount to suicide. You can compromise, though. Get one of the catalyst weapons in one hand and a normal or hybrid catalyst in the other, like Demon's Scar and Crystal Chime or Golden Ritual Spear and White Hair Talisman. Your spells will be weaker, but being able to just hit people when they get too close is so worth it. Too bad there isn't anything like a paired catalyst, either two staves to dual-cast sorceries (either supercharged or just two at the same time), or a dual staff+chime for dark spells or sorcery and miracles.

I disagree with White Hair Talisman getting Unfaltering Prayer, mainly because pyromancy being uninterruptible isn't negated by pyromancy already being fast. Chaos Bed Vestiges or Black Flame being able to trade instead of having to worry about spacing or rollcatching is horrifying to think about. Also, White Hair losing Combustion also loses a bunch of combo potential like Lightning Stake followed by Combustion. Really though, White Hair's real issue is that it does a full 50% less damage than a normal pyro flame or Yorshka's Chime, whereas Crystal Chime only does 20% less damage than Court Sorcerer or Yorshka's. Speaking of Chaos Storm and UP, I seem to recall that one of the recent patches gave it poise? I haven't checked, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference when people can still circle around and backstab you. The spell (and all others like it) is and will remain terrible up until they let it multihit again, and then it will be broken again. It's either "one-shot the boss" strong or "not remotely worth the cost and time of casting" strong, there's no in between. On that note, Divine Pillars of Light would be awesome if it only staggered instead of knocked down, so someone trying to roll through it for an easy backstab could end up eating multiple pillars worth of mediocre damage instead of one hit.

I can't stress Sunlight Spear enough, really. It has a fast casting speed (don't know what you're trying to say about it being slow), the animation looks very much like Lightning Stake which is good for mindgames, and so on and so on. It's like an inverse Great Soul Arrow, where literally the only bad part is the FP cost and everything else is fantastic. Though, if you think GSA is good, that would at least explain why you think Sunlight Spear is terrible when it really, really isn't. At all. And the damage is huge, by the way, when you equip for it correctly. I don't think any amount of words could change your mind though, and I get the feeling I'd have to show you in-game to get the message across. When I say "Sunlight Spear", you're thinking of something that better fits your biases rather than the actual spell itself, but you've already said you're aware of that.

As to having different spells for specific builds, I'm actually okay with this and prefer it. I'd much rather different builds, like hybrids or lower level ones and so on, should have access to completely different spells with different uses rather than all possible builds getting the same spells with the same uses. I hate it when different builds all feel the same even though their stats are wildly different, which is why I hated DaS3 PvP for literally a year before the patches and DLC started to introduce something resembling build variety. And now, about 365 days later, two wonderful things happened: A) dark spells now have a legitimate use instead of being strictly worse than everything else despite the massive stat investments, and B) hybrids now have a category of magic all their own to further distinguish them from dedicated casters or even pyromancers. And the answer to both of those questions is the same thing, Murky Long Staff, which also gives a surprising insight to the Sunless Talisman that nobody noticed before, namely that it can do the same thing for dark miracles that Murky does for dark sorceries. All told, I'm happy with things as they are now.

Setup spells are... tricky, to say the least. If they're visibly distracting, you run the risk of them not being actually distracting (if an experienced player can just be not distracted by the lightshow), and there's the annoyance factor of another player blocking out your screen and potentially killing you by way of interface screw, which is a pretty ******* way to win. If the setup spell is too good, then you run the risk of it working every time and always winning. If it's not good enough, it becomes literally useless. If the setup spell itself is good but the followups are too slow or weak to take advantage of it, then you have the problem where the setup spell is technically useless despite being arguably perfect. Black Serpent, after numerous patches, now neatly qualifies as good enough and is edging just a little bit close to too good (side note, try blocking Black Serpent instead of rolling through it). Making it any better risks becoming a problem, though I'll fully agree that other spells like Floating Chaos or Profaned Flame need a bit of a boost. It's such that your only real options for serious caster pvp are omnicasters or hybrids, because pure casters just lack the necessary tools in one or more areas. For Affinity, I wouldn't say boost its tracking but rather boost its projectile lifespan. In previous games, Affinity's big threat wasn't that it chased you near perfectly (it actually didn't) but that it lingered just long enough to circle around for a second pass if it missed the first. Kind of like Corona, actually. Black Serpent is kind of like the faster, briefer version of DaS1 Pursuers, while Pursuers/Affinity were the looming threats that would kill you dead if you forgot about them.

Fire Whip: I haven't tried this exact thing myself, but I've done similar things and it should work, but try using Demon's Scar and doing R1, FR1 (backflip slice), and Fire Whip. If I'm correct, that should stun your opponent and give you enough room to safely cast Fire Whip.

Emit Force: What you should do is toss something slow at them, then fire Emit Force where you think they're going to dodge. If you guessed correctly, it'll hit them and they'll be flat on the floor, waiting for you to try yet another rollcatch.

Great Soul Arrow: Maybe I've just been using sorcerers long enough to not be fooled by this sort of thing, but the fact remains that there are better, more specialized spells you could be using to get an advantage rather than hoping your opponent will fall for an old trick like that. The problem with this sort of strategy is it relies on your opponent making mistakes, which means if they're flawless then they simply beat you without any trouble. Sunlight Spear would be better at this than what you're trying to use GSA for anyways, since it flies faster meaning there's less time to react and the windup looks very similar to Lightning Stake.

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#34
Quite funny how we got each a spell we totally disagree on with each other. You on GSA, me on Sunlight Spear. At this point, I doubt we will convince each other that those spells are good as they are, so instead let's just discuss the buffs we both would give those spells to make them good in our eyes.

Mine is, as I said in the OP, to add a sort of AoE effect where it strikes the ground ala DS2, but only if it used as a projectile and not on a melee strike. I will even say that it may not even need a higher damage in that case. What would be your favored buff to GSA?

Paired Catalysts, oh gosh, that was my dream since before the release of DS3. Simply being able to 2-hand your Pyromancer Flame and then being able to cast various spells in a unique way is such an amazing thought. Also, I am well aware that using a weapon plus a catalyst is the best way of playing a caster in this game, yes. I had to accept that fact long ago as a sorcerer, and even as my Cleric do I occasionally switch over to my offhand Rose of Ariandel. But as my Jester Thomas build, I will stay stalwart, darn it! I mean, Pyromancers are the best at a no weapon caster build since the introduction of the Parting Flame... Still, they would be better off with sword used, I admit.

I don't think White Hair Talisman would be nightmarish if it had Unfaltering Prayer for the very reason you already said: It's really, really weak. Nobody should really bother effectively trading with Black Flame/CBV just because one would most likely deal far less damage than the enemy, anyways, only reserving it for such things that really, really need it... Like Sacred Flame.

If Chaos Storm got poise, it has to be so little that even an axe can smack you out of it. I mean, even if it had poise, it's so slow that you never hit anybody with it, anyways. Also, I don't mind if it would only hit an enemy once... If I would actually hit anybody with the bloody thing.

Specific spells being useful on only specific build I could get behind, but never behind specific spells being only useful on a specific level. A spell should be useful no matter your level, even if it is only useful on a specific build.

Setup spells are quite a dangerous turf, I won't deny it. Black Serpent is the best at it, and if there were more spells after all this time that were just, or even just almost as useful as it, I would never suggest to buff it. Let's list all the other spells that also are setup spell, or at least try to be: Profaned Flame, Floating Chaos, Seething Chaos, Lightning Storm, Crystal Hail.

What first comes to mind is how Pyromancies have far more setup spells than the other schools... And with that I mean more than one. Though how could one turn those into fine setup spells? We already gave our opinions on Profaned Flame. I said a bigger AoE and a more blinding flame (that could also linger a bit, maybe) and more tracking when locking-on. Of course, the blinding bit could be easily avoided in ways you already explained. It would hide/distract from what you are doing while also acting as a dangerous thing to avoid.

Floating Chaos is either too slow without creating first a safe zone or is too weak to be bothered with. I mean, it still does what it is supposed to do: Add additional projectiles that the enemy has to look out for that actually stuns them, even if just for a second. I would decide on making it just faster to cast, that way it

Seething Chaos is too obvious when it will explode and the timer will always be set, regardless. It does try to be a mind game spell, but hardly achieves that and thus can only be used as a safe zone.

Lightning Storm is pretty alright, as it also doubles as a “get off me” spell... The real problem is that it is the only setup spell Miracles has.

Crystal Hail is dumb and ugly and nobody likes it... Well, maybe if the projectiles that lock onto enemies had better tracking, more longevity and actually stunned your enemy, then it could work as a setup.

Longevity for Affinity would also fix the issues it has... maybe. I actually kinda forgotten how short some spells last in DS3. Maybe they wanted to fix spell sniping enemies, but they went too far with it.

Fire Whip: I guess that is one way to use it, but would it still be incredibly stiff and would require your enemy to definitely roll straight forward or backwards. I like how it worked in DS2, where it was a fine rollcatcher that took quite a while to cast, though did the enemy only take a bit damage while still get stunned if caught by the edge. And, of course, they took lots of damage when hit by the full brunt, dealing great damage.

Emit Force: I mean... yeah, that's how you best hit with it. But it still will deal very little damage and... I dunno, a Cleric can't take much use of a guy knocked over at range. In melee range, Force is faaaaar better at achieving that, and there Miracles can actually take advantage of the knocked over bloke.
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#35
I'd reverse the way Sunlight Spear does damage, so it only gets the extra damage at range instead of up close (technically it's more like a secondary AoE hitbox at the moment of casting), so it doesn't overlap as much with Lightning Stake. For Soul Arrow, I wouldn't change a thing because it is what it is for a very good reason: it's a PvE spell. It's supposed to be mediocre and inexpensive, so you can get through an entire level and boss without running out.

Pyromancy at least has Combustion and Black Flame to use in melee, whereas sorcery has jack and **** while miracles need to take a hit first. Pyro can get away with a lot of things, actually, though I still wouldn't use one without at least the Demon Scar. I don't use sorcery without at least the Heysel Pick, Immolation Tinder, or Moonlight Greatsword, and I don't like miracles mainly for their noticeable lack of weapon options. The Rose stops pretty hard after 40fth both in damage and spell scaling, so it doesn't really count outside hybrids and low-level builds. Speaking of, I wouldn't separate low-level options from hybrid options, since both can use the same things just fine.

If White Hair Talisman is so weak that Unfaltering Prayer on it wouldn't matter, and if Unfaltering Prayer doesn't matter for pyromancy to such a degree that it wouldn't make pyromancy any better outside one spell, then White Hair Talisman will not benefit from Unfaltering Prayer and should have better options instead. It at least gets some measure of use out of Combustion, after all. Still though, I can't help but think there has to be something about the darn lock of head-fuzz that nobody's found yet, like maybe it gives combined Int+Fth scaling to healing miracles or something (which supposedly Crystal Chime doesn't). I'll have to check later, because that's one of the few things I haven't checked for it yet.

Add Homing Crystal Soulmass, Affinity, Corona, and Dead Again to that list. Nevermind the fact that Dead Again in DaS3 is so functionally useless that everyone seems to forget it exists, but it does try to be a setup spell. Which reminds me, Pestilent Mercury is actually pretty handy in PvP since it creates a zone that absolutely nobody ever wants to stand in. Too bad it hurts you too, but it's still great for dropping an obstacle in the middle of an arena which you can shoot behind. For Seething Chaos, just remember that you can place two and stagger their timing. Cast one, wait a bit, cast another either right on top of it or somewhere else, and now your opponent doesn't know when they're going to explode anymore. Very few people can keep track of multiple things at once, even when we're talking about highly skilled players. Aside from that, try casting Seething first, then using a setup spell, then using a normal spell. In this case, Seething works to prevent the opponent from rolling in a certain direction, and if you're manually aiming now you don't need to worry about as many possible directions.

Force is technically better, at melee range. Which is irrelevant, because Emit Force is not a melee spell. You toss it at range, then follow it with a projectile to nail them on the recovery roll. Like Sunlight Spear. :P

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#36
rm, guess that would work with Sunlight Spear. It would definitely fill the void of useful long range spells of Miracles.

Nothing to add to your second paragraph. It's totally right... Also, I never said to to ever separate any options... Or are you just saying it just because?

Back when that Unfaltering Prayer Glitch still worked, I was able to collect info how it affects Pyromancies and I have to say... It's not much. Black Flame allows you to trade without the fear of getting interrupted first, something not to difficult to prevent with that spell. CBV probably benefits most from it since it effectively can trade like a Black Flame...which is a scary thought, I admit, and past that... There's nothing, really. No spell to speak of that takes much advantage of it... Except Sacred Flame and Chaos Storm.

I guess Homing Crystal Soulmass works out, but only if you quite awkwardly backstep towards your opponent and get your timing absolutely right while spin in circles to only fire a couple shots to keep the rest for when your opponent rolls towards you. It is a setup, but a bad one. Again, better than Affinity. Already discussed that one, though.

Corona I consider too wall-smash happy and very lacking it properly covering enough area to be bothering to a foe and too weak to be dangerous. I think I remember the returning disc does not even stun people. That's no good if that is the case.

Dead Again... Is awful, yeah. And Pestilent Mercury I don't like as it, as you said, hurts yourself. I guess enemies have to strafe around it to get to you unharmed... But, well, all Sorcery projectiles can be dodged by strafing, soooo...

Oh, right, could've gone a bit more into detail with Seething Chaos, yeah. Of course throwing only one hardly helps (and it should always be free-aimed, yes), unless to create a quick safe zone for a Floating Chaos, but even so, if throwing out two, Pyromancies worst counter often gets utilized when the enemy isn't sure if they should get close: Walking away... That's really nasty if you wanna set up all your stuff only for your enemy to jog away with even Floating Chaos hardly being able to even somewhat successfully hit him.

Of course Force only works in melee range, but knocked over people are good to a Cleric up close, not afar. Despite Sunlight Spear not being super slow, it's still too slow to get them at range as they recover. Another thing I forgot to mention earlier is that the absolute need to free-aim it to even dream of hitting a person is also pretty silly. You deserve a medal every time you successfully knock somebody over with Emit Force... Though I would be happy with decently dealt damage.
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#37
Sorry, I'd thought you said something about those spells only being useful at lower levels. I must've gotten confused.

CBV sounds like plenty reason enough not to UP, especially since people would be using that over Sacred Flame anyways. It does more damage and it's faster, so of course. Besides, White Hair Talisman needs something unique to its name if it's going to stand out at all, something like dual scaling on healing spells or whatever. Like how Crystal Chime has dual scaling on magic and lightning spells, or how Murky is effectively hybrid single scaling on dark sorceries. Just slapping UP on sounds more like a cop out half-gesture towards a meta that doesn't even apply to it than a way to fix it.

Adjust HCSM firing speed, so it fires off just before CSS to force a roll while CSS rollcatches. I remember that being an almost too effective combo in DaS2, and I would've died to it a lot more if I didn't use spell parry shields so much. You can still do something roughly similar by facing away, starting the spell before turning around, and then facing them before it casts so you can make it fire either as soon as they try getting close or just before the cast so they get hit or roll. I actually did that with Soul Stream once and it worked, unfortunately the guy didn't live long enough for me to confirm if he was actually good or if I was just lucky.

Yes, Corona staggers on the rebound. I think maybe you should practice manually aiming, like a lot, because this has been something of a recurring theme so far.

For Seething Chaos, try dropping it on top of a Warmth or under your own feet. Those are my own favorite applications of it, when I'm not tagging the spaces between walls and pillars because church spears like to play hard to get. For Floating Chaos, I get decent success with it by casting Black Flame (if they're close) followed by Black Serpent, then Floating Chaos. You get just barely enough time to get one off.

Dead Again: Man, I could write an entire essay on everything wrong with this spell. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Some of the things they did to it make sense, like corpses disintegrating after you explode them which makes it hard to spam. Other things I can kind of understand, like how it only explodes three corpses at a time so you don't go through all of them in one shot. But then they go and reduce the damage so far that it's barely even 200 per corpse, on a spell you have to spend way too much time setting up, has an incredibly blatant and slow delay before exploding, and that you likely won't ever cast more than once per fight. And that you also won't likely use without prior preparation. Oh, and it only explodes "enemy" corpses, which means you can't blow stuff up while invading except in one specific area on one specific category of enemies (the Undead Settlement non-aggro hollows, if you're wondering). Just... eugh. How do you mess something up so bad?

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#38
While we are at it, let's give the Archdeacon Great Staff some unique gimmick. The “it scales with faith but casts Sorceries” thing is so incredibly counterproductive, solely on the basis that you need to fulfill the stat requirements of those spells, anyways, and the first really useful Sorceries you can get at around 20+ Int at which point... What's the bloody point? Same goes for the Golden Ritual Spear. They maybe could've been the staff counterpart of Izalith Staff, of sorts, as in it scales off both Faith and Int, yet works badly with Dark Sorceries (Ironically). Kinda like the Crystal Chime, only that they got Steady Chant and can't cast Miracles.

Although, I feel like Golden Ritual Spear should have a whole different gimmick altogether, maybe making it both scale both with Faith and Int, still, but have it be more effective with Dark Sorceries so Hexers (those poor sods) have a spell weapon dedicated to them, too.

Ah, yes, that HCSM tactic is something I am aware of and try to take advantage of... Doesn't work out too well like in DS2, however, despite using all that tricky distancing and timing. Adjusting the time it takes for the Spell to go off might help, yeah, though only if your enemy stays relatively close and doesn't sprint around you. HSCM only can catch sprinters if backstepping very cleverly, during which the adjusted time won't help anymore.

I did train free aiming with Corona for hours upon hours. That's why I am also so pationate about complaining about it. I swear, I can properly free aim with anything in this game, even Emit Force or looooong range Fire Bombs, yet I lose my wits with Corona. Mostly probably because locking-on causes it to fly up in such an awkward angle that it hardly is any use, and when free aiming the extra range it uses to fly up it then uses to go faaaaaar straight ahead, even slightly angling it too far down causing it to hit the foor! Me complaining about free-aiming over and over is not because I am not good at it, it's because I consider this a next level tactic: Offer a spell even more diversity while still being good by its lonesome. Take that me being generous to new player who want to try out a spellcaster without getting rekt immediately.

Warmth plus Seething Chaos is a nice tactic, yes, though did I only use it ever in Invasions because I despise any form of healing in a duel... but that's just me. Although, that trick pretty heavy on the Spell Slots, because Warmth requires two in this game. All those tactics you suggest I actually figured out myself and performed, too, yet I keep failing to mention them (probably because it is very, very late and I am very very tired... I should write this when at the top of my physic, yeesh. Talk to you tomorrow again!).
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#39
Actually, I kind of like the Archdeacon Great Staff and Golden Ritual Spear as-is. Note that 60fth costs roughly 50 levels, whereas 40int+40fth costs roughly 60 levels, so you can go 20int+60fth for the same total level investment, and in practice Archdeacon's is only slightly less powerful than Court Sorcerer Staff. You get to use all the good sorceries at very nearly full power, while still having fully powered miracles with Yorshka's Chime. ADS and GRS are for Faith-heavy dual casters, so they're pretty unique.

If you can spare a ring slot for the Darkmoon Ring, it opens up a lot of possibilities with spell loadouts. Two extra slots is not a bad deal when you're pyromancy or miracles and all the good **** costs two slots.
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#40
Opinions are like *******. Everyone has one. Saying such and such is the best miracle, dark, sorcery, or pyro spell is completely relative. No one is going to agree. It's like discussing what the best weapon is for a particular build. Opinions don't mean anything.
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