Comments posted to our Dark Souls 3 Wiki
By Anonymous
Most people who play the game don't even go on the Internet and look this stuff up. PVP can be found from 80 to 200. Always has been that way. The try hard strength greatsword melee dominant builds will be 120, everyone else level where you want and play the game how you want.
By FranOfTheAbyss
I have 2 arguments, and bear with me. The calcs show the truth.1. Why the SL meta should be higher than 1202. Why the SL meta should be lower / The system should be drastically adjustedArgument 1: If people who wish to make, for example, a DEX/STR build, or any build that revolves around picking a Physically Offensive stat (STR/DEX) along with an Elementally Offensive stat (INT/FTH) such as a DEX/FTH build will have a VERY difficult time getting proper investment in Attunement, along with the Elemental stat as well, which basically means all you'll be able to comfortably do is use your spells for buffs, that is if you wish to have the rest of your stats such as Vigor, Endurance, and Vitality at comfortable levels. At 120, it's just enough room for it to be able to work, but it's very annoying that after a good ol' Quality build applies a resin, although your AR just MIGHT come out to be a BIT higher with your own buffs, you start to think: If I can't even effectively cast spells because my Attunement is so low, whats the point of dedicating myself to one weapon type and throwing all these points into INT/FTH only to buff and have a lower base damage after your 60 second buff runs out. It sucks. Let me show you some numbers:Cathedral Knight Greatsword+10 (Heavy) (40 Str / 16 Dex) 518 BASE DAMAGEAdd Crystal Mag Weapon: 518+(~180)= ~700 DAMAGE TOTALCathedral Knight Greatsword+10 (Refined) (40 Str / 40 Dex) 606 BASE DAMAGEAdd Resin : 606+95= ~700 DAMAGE TOTALThe issue here is that although the INT build will be doing just as much damage as the Quality build, the INT build is at a disadvantage because after 60 sec, his weapon is substantially, usually by ~90 damage, lower than his opponent's, and his opponent has the ability of pulling out a smaller Dex weapon to outplay you're big hunk of slow. This would be TOTALLY acceptable if people could properly cast spells with comfortable Attunement and deal decent damage without having to bring their INT up to around 70, but this isn't the case. To be frank, casting kinda blows, an one would think raising the SL meta from 120 to about 130 or 140 would change this issue, but the next argument will show you why that is very WRONG.Argument 2:The reason the number cannot go any higher, to say, 130 or 140, is because at that range, people can make DEADLY Quality Hybrid builds that have too much DPS. I actually have one at 120, and I'll how you how unfair it is.Vigor: 23 (28 with Prisoner's Chain)Attunement: 10Endurance: 25 (30 with Prisoner's Chain)Vitality: 15 (20 with Prisoner's chain)Strength: 40Dex: 40Int: 9Fth: 40Luck: 7As you can tell, this is a Quality/FTH hybrid that utilizes the Prisoner's Chain to make up for the loss of HP, End, and Vitality. Also, it utilizes the Favor Ring +2, Life Ring +3, and Chloranthy Ring +2 to make up for those losses as well. One may think this is a waste of ring slots, but who needs hornet after you see this:Carthus Curved Sword+10 (Refined) (40 Str / 40 Dex) 438 BASE DAMAGEThen, I use an off-handed Sunlight Straight Sword, cast Sacred Oath with it, (Weapon Skill) and then use Lightning Blade on the Curved Sword, which adds 180.WANNA KNOW WHAT THAT COMES OUT TO?438+180+Sacred Oath (~70ish)= 680 DAMAGEWhen we did calculations for the ULTRA GREAT SWORD above, it maxed at about 700. This CURVED SWORD is only doing 20 less total damage than a sword that weighs 3 times more than it. Isn't that *****ed? The reason 120 has to stay is because if it goes OVER 120, people can comfortably make these hybrid builds. 120 isn't too comfortable for it because even after Pris. Chain and Favor +2, the Endurance is kinda low, which is VERY important. The point here is, anything over 120 will allow these monster DPS builds to thrive. SO UNTIL THEY FIX THE ENTIRE CASTING SYSTEM SOMEHOW, 120 has the be the meta so these disgusting quality hybrid builds don't become comfortable with all the levels they're given. Either we stay at 120, or the whole system has to be revised.Thank you! Reply with that you think! (If you agree, disagree, etc.)
By Anonymous
You must obviously realize that more that 75% of the "SL meta community" are already utilizing these typed of builds right" they can comfortably level to 140 and still play with you "meta Nazis" while having this "OP" SL.. it's not as advantageous as your painting jt out to be... It's a simple trade off. Tactical defender or relentless attacker
By Anonymous
Ohhhhhhh..... my bad. I had no idea there was a meta at all. My character is on like lvl 240... at most. wonder I keep mercin' these scrubs. I almost feel bad.
By Anonymous
Yes, someone who agrees. But I doubt they'll ever fix casting. People like PVPskillz find ways to destroy people with casting, and if they make it any better, we may see a return to mage scrubs everywhere.
By Darkwraith_Sama
mercing scrubs? you can only play with players close to your level. that means you're mercing level 200+ scrubs.
By Darkwraith_Sama
I agree with the main comment mostly.I believe the maximum HP is too small for the amount of damage weapons do.Max HP needs to be raised slightly and weapon damage should be adjusted in various ways. If anyone has played Dark Souls 1, you know that the game had a good weapon damage to HP ratio. Poise needs to be fixed (but im sure they're already working on it). Defense and Elemental Defense and Damage needs to be adjusted as I don't think they're working as well as I think they should.Casting needs to be adjusted to be more efficient.
By Moctecuzoma
I played a lot this game following the sl120 meta. Did a lot of builds like everyone else, but i bringed back a classic from Dks2: a strength/dark-pyro one based on 150 sl. Here i had a strength pyromancer 120 sl with 30 vig 20s end 20svit 18 att (only for the 3 spell spaces) 50 strength to use FUGS 18 dex (for casting and minimu requirements) and 20/20 int faith. The result? Underperforming in every aspect where a quality one shines. Damage input, survivality, variety. Then tried to get the sweetspot of pyros and darks: 30/30 int faith, level up vig to 35 to have 1330 health with fap and life ring +3, 25 end to have three hits with FUGS and a roll with fap+3, 26 to have armour with 20.8 poise for those hyperarmour frames with havel rings+3 and fixed everything that lacked the original build.
The problem? 150 is where you can go 40-40-40-40-40 with 20 endurance. Is ridiculous how underpowered are the casters and hybrids builds, having such high demanding stats only to have a decent damage output. But, im fine with 150, where i dont find me underpowered in ganks and qualitys just smash me down. Anyway, Dks3 has a serious problem in build balancing.
By FranOfTheAbyss
There's a typo in my argument below. The first sentence of argument 1 should say:"If people plan to make, for example, an INT/STR build..." NOT DEX/STR
By LynchTheChimera
I already posted this on the page that this one links to, but I think it should be here as well.Yes, the most common single number thrown around for the SL meta is 120, but according to this relatively huge community poll ( ) (the largest poll ever taken on the subject to date), a significant majority of active community/PvP players want the SL meta to be higher by at least some degree.In fact, of the number of players who care enough about the subject to actually look into it and participate in the poll, only about 30% less people voted for an //SL 150 META// than they did for an SL 120 meta. MUCH higher than what is currently accepted. I cannot stress enough how big of a disparity that is in people's opinions on the subject. And in case that wasn't enough to get the point across, here's another comparison that better drives home the "significant majority" point I mentioned before:Even negating all the votes from people who wanted a (frankly) ridiculously high or low SL meta (more than 170 or less than 100*), the total exact number of people who want an SL meta of 120 or below (at the time of this posting, and also including anyone who voted for "other") is 931, as opposed to 1,257 players who want it to be higher. In fact, even if you don't include any votes for higher than 150, the number of people who want an SL meta higher than 120 is still 1,194, which is about 25% more than people who want 120 or below.According to this data, SL 120 is not the currently accepted or most popular SL meta by any means, though technically it wins one battle, which is that it's the most commonly used single number. This is most likely due to the constant perpetuation of the idea, however. And it's likely that at least in part, the bandwagon effect is to blame for the inflation of SL 120's popularity, even just numerically (people tend to vote for what they think is generally accepted, which makes the highest number in a poll inflate even higher). This isn't even considering factors such as reluctance to change builds due to an SL meta change, the influence of popular Youtubers, or the lack of many good, high-quality build guides for characters over SL 120. All of these things are potentially holding the community back from changing to a new SL meta that frankly and statistically, the community WANTS.So while I cannot present any new single number as the new SL meta that the community wants the most, I can safely say that outright stating SL 120 to be the SL meta is simply wrong, and hurtful to the community as well, since these pages and that number are likely some of the first things people will see when looking for the SL meta. I'm new to wiki editing myself, so I fear that I'll make some kind of mistake in editing the pages to reflect the community's decision if I try, and I also think it'd be wrong for someone as opinionated and verbose as I am to make the change.But I would like to ask one of the editors here to consider doing whatever it is you do to make a clarification to these sections that fairly represents the state of SL meta. Something along the lines of the accepted meta and popular builds starting around 120 and existing primarily through 120-150, meaning PvP-matching should be decent all throughout 110-160, though numbers closer to the middle will be better, especially in low-traffic areas (but let's face it, even if the PvP playerbase was divided all the way from SL 100-200, there'd still be enough PvP in Anor Londo for everyone).It's essential that this change become accepted or at least posted before the new surge of PvP comes with the new DLC, otherwise metas above 120 may never catch on, and the majority of the community could be potentially blocked from PvPing at the level they want for a very long time.*(And I do not mean to imply that there's no room for a realm of very high or low SL PvP, but we're talking about a norm for average end-game PvPers that accommodates fully developed builds without allowing them to become too diluted.)
By Anonymous
Wow. I took this poll. Its results should be thrown out. 1. It specified 100 as the lowest possible one, outside of other, which in surveying is almost moot. The general creep of the thing is implying that everyone wants higher, which is not true. As of 9-25-16 over 45% want it between 120-125, where it is RIGHT NOW. The only real complaint anyone can lodge at SL 120 is it screws casters, but Dark Souls 3 already does that, so nobody cares. I agree, but please use a real survey to back up the rest of us.
By Darkwraith_Sama
very nicely put. I hope other people will see this and become enlightened
By Anonymous
So.. You're saying the meta is 120?
By Anonex
The game has its mechanics and its very calculative, which means. even if you are at level 802 you would still get two hit death from a boss at NG+8 or hgher or get killed by another player as close range level to that.

I think people should really enjoy the game for what it has to offer, i dont get when people say everyone will turn out to be the same likeness in max level and there wont be an identity goes as same to lvl 120 or any pvp lvls entrenched in the ds community, the game has its limit and pass a certain point in any stats it doesn't make much of a difference, there is no solid advantage of someone who's lvl 300 going against someone who's lvl 802, that is which both of them are equipped in all left and right hand slots, buffs and spells which you can only have 10 Attunement slots max, which would take a certain fps going between one slot to another slot while combat when you are only allowed to press UP button to switch, that being said also depending on which spells the character decides to use. you cant use sorcery and miracle at the same time unless if you switch between two weapons or use a weapon that offers to use both spells types but usually those equipments comes with some flaws.

In short, if everyone try to get 802 then along the way there will be different sort of identity and play styles depending on the build they prefer.
By Anonymous
So with the poise back on track with the DLC ,"Vitality" is no longer a dump stat (well actually it was never a dump stat to begin with, it was only considered to be so because everyone thought it to be a stat just for equip load, although its main purpose is actually to increase flat damage reduction. It is so sad that meta is being decided by a majority that does not understand the games mechanics properly). Will we see an increase in SL meta? So that Hybrids and magic users can have a chance, because right now it is the meta that kills these builds not the common misunderstanding that "game mechanics are bad for magic".
By LynchTheChimera
I do believe more people are finally accepting that the SL meta should be going higher, yeah. A while ago, I edited the PvP build page to reflect that, but it looks like I'm gonna have to tweak it again lol.
By Anonymous
It is more likely that those who insist on SL120 meta actually understand the mechanics better since it's viable for all builds.
You can be a High DPS glass-cannon (quality), a Tank (vit/str for example) and so on. There's no need for a "tanky mage pyro cleric with 40STR/40/DEX/40VIT/40INT/40FTH" as there will not be any variety if you go beyond SL120. Every build will start look the same if you go beyond.
By Anonymous
Current meta level i know of is SL150
By Anonymous
Current meta is SL120.
By Anonymous
The meta is at SL120, stop fooling people to go higher as it divides the community.
By Anonymous
Meta is sl 150
By Anonymous
SL120 blah blah blah, go try playing as a sorcerer or cleric at 120 then come back and cry. 120 is and always has been geared towards melee or oroboro carthus spammers with no consideration to casters. One argument you hear all the time is 120 is just about viable for a caster.
27 hp gives 1000, 35 attunment you can cast 4 css before a top up, 30 endurance casts 3 css with a tiny bit left for a roll away thats you at 92 already. The sweet spot for sorcery is 50-60 lets use 55 as a base now were at 147. Oh I know a mage must use the mail breaker you start with gtfo God forbid you want to use an Int based weapon like the dancers swords. So were at 147 what about dex for a faster cast? Vigor to weat light armour like the dancers? Probably around 180 now huh?
Same goes for a cleric, dont forget pyromancers have to invest in both faith and intelligence.
Heres what the SL120 argument should be:-
"Hi I use a carthus spammers sword or an estoc everyone else must be a 1 hit death thank you. Signed Oroboro. PS im going to 140 but keep it a secret"
Play the damn game how you want, level up how you want screw the butthurt spammers. You paid for the game. Im at 180 and get summoned, invaded and do fight clubs. Friend is a faith/int hybrid at 220 surpise he gets summoned invaded and does fight clubs.
By LOKI409
So your complaining about spammy builds but crying that casters are underpowered?!
By LynchTheChimera
LOKI409 clearly doesn't understand how casters work lol. Caster builds actually take MUCH more skill to use effectively, due to the added factors of swapping between spells, planning out roll catches, etc. A melee player only needs to press R1, and they always have a good attack come out quickly. Plus, if they hit, they get to combo. Every time a caster presses R1, one of multiple slower attacks comes out, all of which they have to manage intelligently, and none of which combo into more attacks. Which sounds spammier?
By Anonymous
that's some serious butthurt dude
By Anonymous
Seriously LOKI409 is right though.

I have both cleric, mage and pyromancer at SL120 and it's very overpowered.

STR, DEX & Quality-builds has to get in close combat to have a change against a caster.
If you use light weapons it's easy shielded against or parried.
If you have heavy weapons it's just easy to roll out of.

A caster always has the upper hand unless he's stupid.
By Anonymous
I call Bull on that. I made a level 120 pyro with 27 vit, 18 att (darkmoon ring), 25 end, base vit, 12 str, 20 dex, 40 int/faith and base luck. Thats of the top of my head so I may be wrong but it was viable. I managed to use the onyx blade and witch locks for tons of damage and a buffed astora straight sword with raw infusion does crazy damage too. Dont blame the meta for your lack of creativity.
By Anonymous
180? Really? Seriously? I mean I'm not one to be all 'git gud' but it sounds as though you want heavy armour, max dex, and the ability to cast powerful spells... why not just use cheat engine while you're at it? Also, if you're ever... and I do mean ever, using css in pvp, you are doing it wrong... so very, very wrong. I mean it'll work for sure on baddies, but any remotely competent player will literally just side step it.
By Anonymous
I eat carthus spammers all day with my SL120 Pyro. Your arguments are invalid. The only ones who want a higher meta are the ones who want überhybrids with no trade-offs and guess what? No trade-offs means no variety. OFCOURSE YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO HIT AS HARD WITH A SWORD WHEN YOU'RE A CASTER but guess what? YOU CAN CAST SPELLS DAMMIT! A 40STR/40DEX knight won't be able to cast so ofcourse he will hit harder with a sword instead. Stop whining and git gud.
By LynchTheChimera
Could someone please open this page to editing? It's little unhelpful as-is, and could use some edits.
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