For the PvP nuts! Debate tactics, discuss builds, and set up duels. Play nice.
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AscendedMastery

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#1
I play shieldless with a Bastard Sword, I use the Elite Knight set and so I have a very basic 40 poise.

Lately, I've hit a wall where I can't seem to do anything but die horribly and quickly to anyone with a Curved Greatsword. What they'll do is mash R1, but turn around to dead angle you, and as soon as you're caught, they can either continue the onslaught, or backstab you.

I don't attempt to parry, because afaik, you can't parry dead angle attacks. Is there anything I can try? Outside of gearing up differently? I'd prefer to overcome these challenges with my own skill, and not just a different item setup.
TIA. :)

EDIT:
I neglected to mention that the poise is the real issue here, because even if I hit them first, one R1 isn't enough to break their poise, and they can continue doing what they're doing uninterrupted.
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TSMP

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#2
It is possible to parry dead-angled attacks, it's just very tricky. Shields can only block attacks that come from the direction you're facing in, but the problem is that the game uses the direction the attacking player is facing to determine what direction the attack is coming from in relation to you. This works just fine when you're both locked-on to each other, but falls apart the instant someone breaks that lock and turns slightly.

To block a dead angle, you have to unlock and face in the opposite direction the attacking player is facing. Parrying one works the same way.

Remember to weapon toggle out of their attacks so you don't get stunlocked. You can even preemptively toggle to break out of the first hit and not get tagged by a second.
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Forum_Pirate

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#3
Stop being predictable and eating trades. Bait tbem into swinging and punish. The bastard sword is inferior to the claymore due to a lack of thrusting attacks iirc, but a claymore can zone them with rolling attacks and R2s, and r2s may well stun them.

Greatswords are really terribly matchups against the murakumo since the nerf though, that's pretty much the bottom line, use an offhand spear or rapier and you'll be fast enough to get in, attack and get out before they hit you.
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AscendedMastery

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#4
Forum_Pirate wrote:Stop being predictable and eating trades. Bait tbem into swinging and punish. The bastard sword is inferior to the claymore due to a lack of thrusting attacks iirc, but a claymore can zone them with rolling attacks and R2s, and r2s may well stun them.

Greatswords are really terribly matchups against the murakumo since the nerf though, that's pretty much the bottom line, use an offhand spear or rapier and you'll be fast enough to get in, attack and get out before they hit you.

Look man, don't take this the wrong way, I appreciate you taking the time to comment, but I'll be blunt. What part of "I'd prefer to overcome these challenges with my own skill, and not just a different item setup." didn't make sense to you? I was pretty specific about this.

Naturally I'm trying not to take any trades, but the issue is that my GS is as slow if not slower than the CGS. If it was just a matter of timing my R1, I could do that. I suppose I could anticipate the frontal R1 and parry that. Or maybe I could somehow time a roll through the dead angle R1 and manage a backstab before they turn around? These are the kind of strategies and ideas I'm looking for. Swapping setups won't make you a better player.
lit·er·al
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adjective

taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

su·per·flu·ous
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adjective

unnecessary, especially through being more than enough.
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AscendedMastery

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#5
TSMP wrote:It is possible to parry dead-angled attacks, it's just very tricky. Shields can only block attacks that come from the direction you're facing in, but the problem is that the game uses the direction the attacking player is facing to determine what direction the attack is coming from in relation to you. This works just fine when you're both locked-on to each other, but falls apart the instant someone breaks that lock and turns slightly.

To block a dead angle, you have to unlock and face in the opposite direction the attacking player is facing. Parrying one works the same way.

Remember to weapon toggle out of their attacks so you don't get stunlocked. You can even preemptively toggle to break out of the first hit and not get tagged by a second.

I actually can't toggle escape to save my life. But the information about the dead angles was useful, and it saves me the guesswork on how to deal with it. I suppose there are ways to win with my specific setup, it'd just require a lot of practice.
lit·er·al
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taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

su·per·flu·ous
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unnecessary, especially through being more than enough.
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Forum_Pirate

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#6
Don't try to parry cgs. It doesn't generally (ever) end well. Don't try to parry the greatscythe or zweihander either.

Yeah, and the cgs also stunlocks and has better reach. (you're initial swing is faster btw, it's the followup that takes forever.) Like I said, the bastard sword is an inferior weapon with the same purpose as a cgs. There isn't going to be a definitive answer for how to win, because it has all your strengths and then some so you just have to be better about everything (ie spacing, timing, stamina management) than they are. CGS have a really long and obvious initial windup to exploit with quicker weapons/attacks, use it. If they're catching you with trades, you're being predictable.

Roll bs? Yeah, that works on almost everything (not so much against spears and halberd,) but you have to be careful because if you screw up your timing you'll get hit anyways because murakumo, or they'll predict it and pivot to hit you in the face. I just assumed you knew that. You know you can weapon toggle just before any given hit to negate the stun and roll out of the lock right?

Bull **** it won't. Part of skill is recognising poor matchups and learning new things to handle it. Greatswords in general are terrible against CGS, and the bastard sword/msgs especially so, so get 56+ poise and a claymore or the MLGS for zoning and punishing or find another weapon class because bitching about losing ****y matchups while refusing to use a backup or secondary weapon and telling off people who point out the poor matchups isn't doing you any favors. Knowingly using tools that aren't effective for the task at hand isn't skill, it's stupid.

All things being equal, you will lose that fight every single time. You have to be way better than them, or really lucky to come out ahead. A claymore in 1 hand or a mlgs in 2 will far better due to better range. An offhand rapier and roll/poke pressure absolutely devastate a 2h mura if well executed.
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AscendedMastery

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#7
Forum_Pirate wrote:Don't try to parry cgs. It doesn't generally (ever) end well. Don't try to parry the greatscythe or zweihander either.
Why? I've done it before. Because of dead angles?

Yeah, and the cgs also stunlocks and has better reach. (you're initial swing is faster btw, it's the followup that takes forever.) Like I said, the bastard sword is an inferior weapon with the same purpose as a cgs. There isn't going to be a definitive answer for how to win, because it has all your strengths and then some so you just have to be better about everything (ie spacing, timing, stamina management) than they are. CGS have a really long and obvious initial windup to exploit with quicker weapons/attacks, use it. If they're catching you with trades, you're being predictable.
Well I'm out to improve my fundamental PvPing skills, so spacing, timing and stamina management are improving steadily over time. I'm not as predictable as you think. These people literally have one pattern: They approach you and then they dead angle R1 to forward R1 and so on. They don't even bother avoiding damage, because they just have to clip you once, usually, and even if you toggle, as long as they get more chip damage on you, they won't feel threatened. This is why I always lose.

Roll bs? Yeah, that works on almost everything (not so much against spears and halberd,) but you have to be careful because if you screw up your timing you'll get hit anyways because murakumo, or they'll predict it and pivot to hit you in the face. I just assumed you knew that.
They aren't that creative. Their strategy is like clockwork, and they'll perform like a machine, without vary.


You know you can weapon toggle just before any given hit to negate the stun and roll out of the lock right?
No, Professor Snide. I didn't. But thanks for the tidbit.

Bull **** it won't. Part of skill is recognising poor matchups and learning new things to handle it. Greatswords in general are terrible against CGS, and the bastard sword/msgs especially so, so get 56+ poise and a claymore or the MLGS for zoning and punishing or find another weapon class because bitching about losing ****y matchups while refusing to use a backup or secondary weapon and telling off people who point out the poor matchups isn't doing you any favors. Knowingly using tools that aren't effective for the task at hand isn't skill, it's stupid.
Salty much?
I never bitched about losing, I asked politely for strategies, of which you provided none. Instead you went on to criticize my setup, my playstyle and my mindset. The whole point of a "challenge" is that it's hard. Overcome it. Not circumvent it by changing to an easier weapon to use.

All things being equal, you will lose that fight every single time. You have to be way better than them, or really lucky to come out ahead. A claymore in 1 hand or a mlgs in 2 will far better due to better range. An offhand rapier and roll/poke pressure absolutely devastate a 2h mura if well executed.
Bingo. This is what I'm after. Being way better than them. So even you admit that it could be done if the person were skilled enough. I'm fine with losing, I really am. I could always swap out my GS for a Katana or a Rapier, but then it wouldn't be "challenging" anymore, and I wouldn't be "challenging" myself to become "better" at dueling. Now please, stop suggesting I bump up my poise, switch to the Claymore and offhand a Rapier.
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taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

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TSMP

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#8
Oh goodness. Hang on there you two, there's no need to get mad at each other.

@AscendedMastery:

Pirate is trying to help, by telling you what works for him. Technically speaking, changing your equipment (and thus the ways in which you can attack a problem and the options available to you) is strategy. Tactics is the part where you take the overall strategy you've deployed and apply it as needed to actually reach the goal you've set out, which in this case is to defeat a particular other strategy.

At least ask yourself one question before you reject his advice off-hand: Why do you not want to change your gear? Because to me, it looks like you think using anything else would either be "selling out" or would imply a lack of skill. If you were to ask me, I'd say changing your equipment is neither of those things. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any weapon, and knowing how best to apply them, cannot by any definition imply a lack of skill.

All else aside though, definitely learn how weapon toggling works and when to use it. It's as simple as switching your weapons, because that's exactly what it is.


@Forum_Pirate:

This would have gone much better if you had taken a moment to consider Ascended's stance on the issue, and gave the sort of advice he was looking for even if it wasn't the best possible advice for the situation. If someone doesn't want something, there's a reason for it. You can't change their mind without addressing that reason first, otherwise you're just wasting your breath and starting an argument that won't do anyone any good.
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AscendedMastery

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#9
TSMP wrote:@AscendedMastery:
Pirate is trying to help, by telling you what works for him. Technically speaking, changing your equipment (and thus the ways in which you can attack a problem and the options available to you) is strategy. Tactics is the part where you take the overall strategy you've deployed and apply it as needed to actually reach the goal you've set out, which in this case is to defeat a particular other strategy.

You're right, it is a strategy. And it isn't selling out to use a weapon that's better suited against another specific weapon. It just wasn't the strategy I was looking for.

At least ask yourself one question before you reject his advice off-hand: Why do you not want to change your gear? Because to me, it looks like you think using anything else would either be "selling out" or would imply a lack of skill. If you were to ask me, I'd say changing your equipment is neither of those things. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any weapon, and knowing how best to apply them, cannot by any definition imply a lack of skill.
All else aside though, definitely learn how weapon toggling works and when to use it. It's as simple as switching your weapons, because that's exactly what it is.
I just don't feel like it. I've been using Rapiers since before DkSII came out, and I'm frankly sick of them. High Poise? I'd have to change my armor, and I'm happy with what I've got. Bastard Sword over Claymore? It's because I'd like to explore the possibilities of an underused item, and also because I tend to go with something just because even if there's a slightly better alternative. Changing my setup is kind of a pain in the ***, and I think it'd be really cool if I could go into PvP and not worry about whether I've got a Shotel for turtles, or a Rapier for R1 spammers. We can all agree that efficiency is accomplishing more with less. Recognizing which weapons are more suited for eachother is certainly a skill. But it's not "melee" skill. At least, I don't see how it's relevant.


If he had given any indication that he cared about my preference to play as a minimalist, I certainly wouldn't have minded contrary advice. This whole "I know better than you so you should do things my way instead" vibe I was getting was off-putting to say the least.
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taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

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TSMP

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#10
And that's perfectly fine, but do understand there's only so much advice a person can give you for this. It's a bastard sword, there's only so much it can do really.

If the goal is to use a bastard sword to beat a curved greatsword poise monster, your first step is to figure out exactly how much poise he has. Typically when someone stacks poise to tank a certain class of weapon, they only focus on how much poise damage a two-handed R1 of that weapon can deal, sometimes not even realizing than an R2 can deal more. If he has just enough poise to beat a two-handed greatsword R1 (53), you can probably best that by using an R2. You'd have to watch out for the longer reach of the murakumo, and time your attack to hit between their's or something and hopefully they don't figure out what you're up to, but if they only have 53 poise that'd be enough to interrupt them.

If your opponent has havel-levels of poise, trading with them is absolutely not an option. You'll either have to bait them into using up all their stamina and hope they're dumb enough to fall for it, or exploit the one attack in the game that bypasses any and all poise: backstabs. I honestly can't think of anything else that could work against a max poise, dead-angling, curved greatsword, and even that's counting on them not getting a hit off on the backswing of their weapon.

As far as straight-up applying your weapon and nothing else, that's kind of it really. The bastard sword does have its quirks that set it apart (like the R1-R2-R1-R2 etc combo), but it lacks the long-range thrust of the claymore that would be very useful for poking here.

So I guess in summary my advice is that there really isn't much advice I can give for this specific scenario, and your best bet is just to brush up on general fight'n skills and try to overcome a statistical disadvantage with pure skill.
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