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Thief wrote:Actually, that would make the math of crits even weirder than we first assumed; given the Dagger deals vastly more physical damage at the same (dex-focused) stats, and has the same numerical crit modifier.

I'm not doubting him or you, I'm just saying.

No you're right. By all means be doubtful (or at least withhold judgement).

It may have been asserted without any testing whatsoever. Seriously.



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Do you have the AR at base stats for each ?

240 at max with scaling for a dagger seems very low. :(

Aren't they just good for mundane ?
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Well, not necessarily. On one of my 40-STR builds, I use a Shadow Dagger +9 (didn't want to put a Slab into it just in case I got bored of it) and it has 203 AR. Running a Ring of Blades +2, puts it at 253. Still, it's a one-shotting (or close) machine for ripostes against most opponents. The most I've ever done is 2500 (phantom riposte; so the damage displayed was my opponents ~1700 HP plus the 800 I did on the phantom part) and the least is 1100 on a Havel (not sure if it was upgraded). Someone with 290 AR would really ensure that most crits are one-shots.

Scratch that: Just parried someone. My new record for maximum damage is 2200 for a straight-up, non-phantom riposte.


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Amazing post. Would still like to know if anyone has done testing on which dagger has the best critical attack. Again thank you for the time and effort it took to do that testing.
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A while back I've tested most daggers fully upgraded+mundane on a minimum 20stat spread and came up with the Shadow dagger doing the most backstab damage with the normal dagger doing only a few points less. I remember that the bandit knife also did very similar backstab damage.


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Great research Seignar. Need criticals info though. I know it's a lot of work getting all daggers at same AR and do the testing.
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Well, in my case it would be just time consuming having to respec and warp between areas for 10 daggers. But, not time consuming enough to stop me:

Anyway, since plenty of people wanted to know the critical modifiers (totally expected, btw), I have done the research. These daggers tests were done with 200 AR (What a hassle for Thief's Dagger) and with the "assistance" of the Syan Knights in the Undead Crypt (done merely so people have an idea of backstab power at higher levels):

Format - [Name, Backstab Damage, Damage (from a non-counter 1H Light Attack), % difference]

  1. Dagger - 1030, 58, 1776%
  2. Parrying Dagger - 750, 33, 2272%*
  3. Bandit's Knife - 1028, 58, 1772%
  4. Shadow Dagger - 1034, 59 1753%
  5. Thief Dagger - 1028, 58, 1772%
  6. Broken Thief Sword - 179, 58, 309%**
  7. Manikin Knife - 1030, 58, 1776%
  8. Royal Dirk - 179, 76, 236%**
  9. Mytha's Bent Blade - 1028, 58, 1772%
  10. Black Flamestone Dagger - 179, 58, 309%**

* Thrusting Sword moveset, does not apply AR the same way as Daggers.
** Straight Sword backstab, probably applied the same critical modifier as Straight Swords (309%)

The slight alterations in damage may be due to invisible decimal numbers in a weapons AR that are not displayed (hence why Shadow Dagger does 1 more point of damage than Dagger), so we can conclude that all dagger backstab animations (with the exception of Parrying Dagger) have the same critical modifier. Also, do not take the % values to heart, CRIT modifiers are very difficult to understand.

Later on, I tested Shadow Dagger with 270 AR, the backstab damage was 1536 and the Light Attack damage was 158 (Confirmed, AR still has increasing returns) which led to only a 972% difference in damage. Another time, when I tested with Hollow Soldiers, the damage per backstab was 1428 while the Light Attack was 238, which is a 600% difference. Then, when I tested a broken dagger on the Hollows, I dealt 188 backstab damage and 8 Light Attack damage which was a 2350% difference.

It appears there is a minimal amount of damage that is added into every backstab, on top of the CRIT bonus from your AR, which is why your backstabs are much more effective the less damage you deal to your enemy normally.

Conclusion: If you want to backstab, be a STR build and use the Shadow Dagger, it's made of Awesomeness



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Fexelea wrote:So... how do we add all of this wonderful info to relevant wiki pages?

I was quite surprise the wiki didn't have a researches tab on it :laughing:

it would be a perfect place to put these wonderful researches that usually get buried in posts in the forum
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Fexelea wrote:So... how do we add all of this wonderful info to relevant wiki pages?

Add a link in the dagger spoiler on the weapons page is what comes to my mind.


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I'm tweaking my caster / sorcerer build (50+ attune, 50+ faith, 65+ int ATM).

I normally roll with my staff / chime / pyro and dagger in the other hand. So far I've used the vanilla dagger, but just got it in my mind to upgrade it now that I have most of the other equipment for my build.

I started reinforcing it (think I'm at dagger +6 or +7) now. Should I do anything other than upgrade it to +10? I was considering infusing with a magic stone to make it intelligence based (given INT is my highest stat), but I wasn't sure how this would affect the overall damage.

Any suggestions?