Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
1 
Reply  
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#1
Note: this thread began as a discussion about Sif and developed into a discussion about the mythological lore that influenced Dark Souls. Rather than opine, the purpose of this thread is to see if external lore and etymology can shed light on some of the game's mysteries. That said, to keep things on topic and from bleeding over into Acidic's very important in-game lore uncovering please keep discussion here focused on direct links between internal and external lore.


I think that wolf is Artorias, and have for a bit now. The covenant made with beasts turned him into a beast. My supporting evidence:

All Boss soul created weapons/gear (dragonslayer spear, moonlight horn, gwyn's sword) are created directly using the owner's soul. Odd that Sif's soul would create his owner's weapons.

Biggest easter egg? The boxart. If that is Artorias on the cover, with his back to us walking into the mist of souls, he is a lefty. Sif attacks from a lefty stance as well, primarily using a left to right slash with a lefty overhand combo finisher. Very rarely, he will switch to righty stance but always quickly switches back to the left positioning. I could not reconcile the idea of Artorias as the 4 Kings as a result because of their right handed only attacks. I just feel left handed Artorias, left handed Sif is too much of a connection to ignore.
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,509.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16986
Reputation: 595
Wiki Edits: 460
#2
Also, evidence against the Four Kings is that Sif seems to appear at a Grave. This is corroborated (notice I don't use confirmed) by the Seal which indicates that the door in the forest "Leads to the grave of Sir Artorias." The size of the grave suggests he was similar in size to the Four Kings but it seems like a lot of the population was a tad bigger than us. Sif may not be Artorias but there is definitely a strong connection. Emergence, there's a few exceptions to the weapon rule (chaos blade, darkmoon bow) but I do find it odd that Sif is tied to three separate pieces or Artorias' gear. More evidence to Artorias in the forest comes from the Cat Covenant Ring which states Alvina was around since the early age of fire and was a trusted friend of both Artorias and Sif. This could mean the three jolly co-oped (were friends) and that Sif was Artorias' companion or that Alvina recognizes Sif for who he used to be. If From is heavy into lore than there could be MORE evidence that Sif is not Artorias. I present exhibit A:
Sif
The only lore I am aware of using this name is female. Artorias is clearly stated to be male several times. I can't find in game mention of Sif's gender (please please please tell me if there is).
In addition, Sif's soul indicates it "inherited" the "divine greatsword"

So here's my theory on Sif and Artorias.....Notice that Sif inherited the "divine" sword and there are two Greatsword's linked to Artorias. The other being cursed. My theory is Artorias bequeathed his original blade to Sif for safekeeping before traversing the Abyss. At this time he joined the covenant as stated in the other sword and thus his second weapon was born. For his treachery, Artorias was killed (likely by O&S which I can explain if anyone wants to hear it) and Alvina, a trusted friend helped Sif retrieve the body and bury it in the forest, the only area which seems almost completely independent of the curse afflicting the rest of Lordran (all the enemies here with the exception of the stone/crystal golems are "natural" as opposed to hollows).
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#3
Sif from a lore perspective is interesting. The only instance of Sif in other lore is Norse mythology as the Lady Sif, consort of Thor, the God of Thunder. She is closely associated with nature/earth. Being consort to the God of Thunder is also very interesting because it is clear Norse mythology had a huge influence in this game with an Arthurian overlap. I have a whole ton of info on that stuff that I am compiling for a separate thread, but for now the name Artorias is the ethmylogical root of Arthur. Studying these other mythologies has been interesting, I think it can answer some questions while at the same time confuse.
This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#4
So yes whether Sif is Artorias or not it is clear Artorias' essence lived on and was transmuted to Sif in some way. I always just assumed that finding the armor and wolf ring in the forest was either a result of Artorias shedding those items as he changed or they were dropped by bandits. Interestig you think S&O killed him too. I wondered if Ciaran's ring on a corpse right by the grave suggested that Ciaran was the one who did the deed and "backstabbed" his brother, but met his own death as well.
This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,509.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16986
Reputation: 595
Wiki Edits: 460
#5
I know right....The sword in the ground near the stone lends weight to the Arthur connection. I didn't catch that one honestly. Sif is only missing the golden hair in my opinion as much of the rest seems to fit. Like my wikipedia link and your post, definitely connected to the earth. The hair is also theorized to symbolize wheat (good harvest, etc.) which makes sense in the only area showing signs of growth and life. The flowers STILL captivate me in the forest. I briefly thought that perhaps Sif was a mashup of...well, Sif....and the Fenris Wolf but the absence of a silken cord to bind him to the rock (grave) is conspicuous. Although a sword was placed in the jaws of the wolf, it was to prevent him from biting, not to ADD a weapon Image
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,509.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16986
Reputation: 595
Wiki Edits: 460
#6
The wolf ring outside of the grave area is intriguing. I tend to believe that the reference to bandits suggests that at one point someone almost got away with something, got lost in the woods and met their end. I don't have a lot of evidence beside the bandit reference. Ciaran's ring is also intriguing. I tend to to believe O&S for several reasons but don't rule out Ciaran. I think he might be a third party in the deed but feel more confident about O&S. Smough's lore makes me believe he aspired to be the fifth Beatle (knight) but his bloodthirsty ways prevented it. But who ruled him out of the group? Ornstein doesn't seem bothered by Smough in the least. Ciaran is pretty much missing in the game, as is Gough. Evidence suggests that Gough stayed in Anor Londo as he led the Great Archers who still have a presence and his ring is still there as well. I'll get to my Ciaran theory in a second. So in order to be excluded from the group of knights there would have to be either a vote that didn't go in his favor (either split or majority) or there was a leader who ruled him out. In the event of a vote, I feel confident Artorias said "no thanks." Either he was the leader and his vote was law or one or more other Knights agreed. Ornstein seems to like Smough and their Statues grace the entry to Anor Londo seeming to suggest they became equals at some point in time. Statues of the other knights are NOT present seemingly. Gough seems to be around like I said but is no longer revered. Perhaps he voted "no" to Smough as well but recanted once Artorias and Ciaran were gone. Or he voted "yes" but was relegated to a lower status. Or they kept him around for his value as a tactician. I feel strongly that Gough was around but diminished. Ciaran is harder to peg. The presence of the ring makes me confident he was at the grave. I am pretty sure he didn't leave either. A few theories (with little proof). Assuming Artorias was the leader, perhaps there was resentment and Ciaran went along with O&S (and possibly Gough) to remove Artorias from power. This is definitely possible as they seem to have served Gwyn and Artorias joined the Darwraiths (a covenant Gywn went to great lengths to destroy). Adding to this is Ciaran's apparent specialty.....backstabs. This could be taken to mean not the move but the act of treason. I do believe that Ciaran might have backstabbed Artorias. However, I don't think that Artorias died in the forest. The presence of the sword and Sif alive seem to suggest that the body was moved after death as I don't think that Sif would be left alive or the sword left as tribute (at least not if O&S were involved there). I believe that the ring, like the body got there after the murder of Artorias. Did Ciaran feel guilty about his involvement and leave the ring as tribute? Perhaps he sent the ring via a messenger as I believe it's found on a corpse smaller than the knights are suggested to be. This could be perhaps another bandit who didn't quite make it but either way the ring was there. This could have been done covertly to avoid leading O&S to Artorias' grave. Ciaran would have been watched with my theories as I don't think he was fully on board with Smough as the fifth knight and a visit to the grave would be bad news. Or did Ciaran make a stand with Artorias and also paid the price? Backstab meaning he betrayed Gwyn. The lack of a second grave or lore to that effect makes me doubt this.

To make my case for O&S as the murderers, EVERYTHING about Artorias makes me believe he is special (more so than Rhea and Solaire) and therefore likely pretty stellar combat wise. O&S are definitely buddy-buddy which goes against the concept of Smough not being invited to the Knight party. They have practice fighting together which I think they would need to do to beat Artorias (they would have lost if Sif was there unless Gough and/or Ciaran joined in). Anor Londo has been renovated to remove the old heroes (Gwyn's first born, Ciaran, Gough and Artorias). Ornstein and Smough are the new idols meaning they rose to power together (possibly after Gwyn took off but I doubt it).

So to summarize my beliefs......Artorias and his divine weapon was originally assigned to hunt down evil forces but eventually realized he didn't agree with the way things were heading with Gwyn. Knowing that his actions would be considered treason and punishable by execution he bequeathed his weapon to Sif for safekeeping and left, on his own down his new path. Artorias joined the Darkwraith covenant and his cursed sword was forged as a replacement to his divine weapon and a symbol of his new journey. Fearing the covenant now that the best knight was on board, Gwyn ordered it's destruction. With Artorias out of the picture, Ornstein became the new head of the knights, initiated Smough to the ranks. Gough and Ciaran were torn but reluctant to leave their old life behind. They remained with the knights but were demoted in the new regime. New Londo was flooded in the battle and Artorias was murdered in a final stand. Possibly this occured in New Londo (Ornstein has a LOT of drake heads which aren't big enough to have been a trophy of the war between the Lords and the Dragons). I am unsure if Ciaran was an accomplice but lean toward "probably." Eventually, those loyal to Artorias (Sif, possibly Alvina, possibly Ciaran) recovered his body and hid it in the forest, again the only place I feel that has true "life" in Lordran.

Sorry for the thesis
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#7
Good read, we are speaking the same language. What stands out to me about Ciaran as the murderer is the presence of the ring on the backside of the grave. It seems such a strong symbol. A gift at a grave would normally be placed at its front. Otherwise, I think there is creedence to everything you said as well.

Just a wild symbolic observation: Arthur and Lady Guinevere had quite the tumultuous marriage, full of infidelity and distrust. There isn't any in game lore to support it but I wonder if the choice of names is meant to imply something.


This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,509.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16986
Reputation: 595
Wiki Edits: 460
#8
Lol....Here we continue....Think we hijacked this thread Emergence. That's a great point about the placement of the ring. I am starting to lean toward Ciaran had a hand in it for sure. The small body still could be meaningful though. I am not sure if the rings were found by bandits (as Alvina has to recruit persons from all walks of life to protect the forest) and this bandit didn't get far or if a messenger brought it to the grave. The placement is odd though for sure. If a bandit took it was he trying to hide behind the grave or did he find it there and was immediately killed? Like you said....a messenger probably would lean toward the front of the grave. Great observation. So...new theory. Sif got to that guy quickly and the other was able to run......just not very far. As far as Arthur and his tumultuous marriage I would have to look for in game evidence since I didn't catch the Arthur root of the name until you pointed it out. Off the top of my head though, why did Gwynevere leave Anor Londo? It seems like most of the Gods did but reasons are lacking for many. Were Arthur and Guinevere alive and well in Lordran at some point? Is her statue also missing in Anor Londo? To the item descriptions and a tour of Anor Londo later tonight!!!!
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#9
I split the topics to avoid a hijacking lol
This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
VIP
Avatar

Emergence

Sovereign
Jovian

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Jupiter
Souls: 145,557.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 7373
Reputation: 166
Wiki Edits: 25927
#10
She left Anor Londo with the old gods as wife to the flame god Flan. I know it's complete conjecture but love and love lost have driven many a man to crazy lengths, even unbendable ones. Just ask Paris and his poor brother Hector.
This site is a bonfire. Thank you all for kindling it. "No rest for the wikid."- the eldritch wisdom of Skarekrow13

Gaming News, Guides & Reviews / Gaming Wikis / Join VIP
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
1