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Mr_Rift

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#1
Hey folks, I've had a few ideas kicking around for a while now but no real luck with getting a good discussion anywhere, either people don't respond... or they do and they're a little bonkers :P

So, I'll just leave this here and if any of it takes your fancy, feel free to discuss. It's largely bullet point ideas with a few that lead onto subsequent thoughts. Any thoughts here are based on info purely from Dark Souls, with a little from Dark Souls 2, nothing related to Demon Souls or that Kings series or whatever else.

1- Humans were around in the Age of Ancients - Gwyn and his knights, Nito (and all the dead he lorded over), the Witch of Izalith and her children, as well as the Furtive Pygmy (who wasn’t Hollow at the time of finding the Dark Soul, look at his hands.) The Gold-Hemmed Black Set states that the Daughter of Chaos who owned it “Wore this gold-hemmed black set before even the Age of Fire.”

2- The God’s were once Human, they’re simply individuals with powerful souls that can be taken or given away, eg: Gwyn taking away the deific status of his firstborn, separating his own soul and passing it to others and finally the player defeating the Gods and taking their Lord Souls. At the end of the game we’re even able to absorb Gwyn’s soul into ourselves, hinting that it’s no mechanically different from any other type of soul. To further back up this point, Gwyn himself had an Uncle –All-Father Lloyd, implying that there was a generation before him. Also backing up that they at least were mere Human at one point, Velka is referred to as a “black-haired witch” and even Gwyn eventually became a Hollow. Finally, Priscilla’s Lifehunt Scythe has the description “even the Gods feared Priscilla’s Lifehunt ability.” Would a true God fear Lifehunt, what about a extremely powerful being that was essentially still human?

3- She’s called “The Witch of Izalith,” she’s named after her profession and where she’s from; she’s was a Flame Sorceress, she used the Soul Arts to manipulate flame in the ancient city of Izalith. In the intro film, when we’re introduced to the Four Lords they’re all within an underground cave complex, even the so called “Lord of Sunlight.” I put forward that in the Age of Ancients, Humans lived underground in the city of Izalith, (where they had a very complex culture and society, eg: sorcery, nobility and knighthood) while the Everlasting Dragons lived in the Arch-Tree craggy wasteland that is possibly now known as Ash Lake. Izalith is chocked by the roots of trees, is it more likely that they built the city under the roots or that the city was there and the roots grew over them? If you accept that the roots grew over the city then that implies that the city of Izalith was there before the Archtrees above.

4- Another point that backs up the idea that the Gods are just Humans who’ve ascended, there’s different groups of Gods that seem totally unrelated. Gwyn and his pantheon seem to have nothing to do with Velka, Flann or even the unnamed Blacksmith Deity, Velka is in fact listed as a “Rogue Deity.” This could be a situation akin to Zeus and his lot meeting up with Odin and his bunch, a few on each side would die out but the rest would have to live together. Perhaps these three unrelated Gods were individuals who ascended at a different time/place and own no fealty to Gwyn. This would certainly explain Velka’s grudge against the other Gods, Gwyndolin in particular considering how similar their areas of influence are. Finally, Qwynevere marries and runs off with Flann the God of Fire, in medieval history the daughter of a king never got to marry who she wanted, she was always married off for diplomatic reasons, to strengthen ties and all that. There’s no hint of the usual incestuous crap that goes on with typical Gods in history so it’s a safe bet that Qwynevere are not related and that she was forced to marry him to create peace between Gwyn’s court and whatever pantheon that Flann was from.

5- The Everlasting Dragons were once Human as well. Those who follow the Path of the Dragon seek to become Dragons themselves – “The Dragon Apostles, seek the transcendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon.” They attained this goal by collecting Dragon Scales, or Scales of Immortality. The description of Dragon Scales say that “A dragon is inseparable from its scales” but also that the scales were “peeled from an ancient dragon.” This implies that the Everlasting Dragons were emotionally attached, even obsessed, with their scales but that they could in fact be separated from them physically, which is why you can find them scattered throughout the game. Along with this, it’s mentioned that the Everlasting Dragons are neither alive nor dead, so how can something that’s not even alive be born in the first place? The followers of the Path of the Dragon seek to become Everlasting Dragons, I put forward that ‘True’ Everlasting Dragons aren’t born but are instead made. (Which is backed up by the appearance of the new Dragons in DK2, which are shaped a lot like dragon forms from the Cult of the Dragon, they're coming back, more so in DK2)

6- Backing up the notion that both the Gods and Dragons were once Human/Undead, Crossbreed Priscilla is thought to be the daughter of Seath and Qwynevere. She has a tail (or is it a conveniently placed tentacle?) and no scales. I think she was imprisoned to hide the fact of the shared origins of her parents, Gods and Dragons.

7- The new holders of the Lord Souls didn’t just fight the Everlasting Dragons - “With the Strength of Lords, they challenged the dragons.” They actually stepped up and challenged them, something that they hadn’t been able to do previously. I put forward that the Everlasting Dragons, ruled over/terrorized the rest of Humankind in the Age of Ancients and that the Gods didn’t just attack them for no reason but that they were finally stepping up and overthrowing them.

8- Seath the Scaleless – It’s assumed the he was just born a scaleless albino with tentacles. I propose an alternative, that Seath was a Human that attempted to become an Everlasting Dragon with sorcery but messed up the process, becoming an imperfect Dragon (check out the intro, he’s all tentacle-ish back in the Age of Ancients.) Because of this, he was stripped of the Scales of Immortality he’d collected and was rejected by the Everlasting Dragons, a betrayal which would cause him to turn on them.

9- Seath was given part of a Lord Soul and he has the Primordial Crystal, immortality is already well within his grasp so what is he researching? I think he’s trying to figure out a way to undo what he did to himself and return to Human form.

10- Seath is kidnapping Humans/Undead and experimenting on them, the Pisaca in the Dukes Archives are former Humans/Undead who’ve been turned into horrible tentacle abominations (tentacles, like his own.) Seath doesn’t know of any Everlasting Dragons that he can experiment upon so he’s forcing the imperfect transformation he went through onto unwilling Humans/Undead in the hopes that he can then reverse engineer a successful process and apply it to himself. In regards to targeting only females, perhaps he’s hoping to one day snatch a Fire Keeper, their Humanity gnawed soul would no doubt prove a much greater test subject for his experiments.

11- Furthering the idea that Dragonhood is a state that can be attained, the Vinheim Dragon School has the Bellowing/Lingering/Slumbering Dragoncrest Rings, each with the symbol of a Dragon upon them. Adoration of the God’s first great foe for simple decoration seems a needlessly risky proposition, unless the wearers seek to use their sorceries to one day attain a similar transcendent state. Big Hat Logan seemed particular taken with studying the sorceries of Seath the Scaleless.

12- The Covetous Gold/Silver Serpent Rings state that “The serpent is an imperfect dragon and a symbol of the undead.” This backs up the notion that Dragonhood is a state of being that is created or attained with the possibility of failure, not one that an individual is born into. The Primordial Serpents Kingseeker Frampt and Darkstalker Kaathe are immortal like the Everlasting Dragons, possibly as a result of the Primordial Crystal, but they seem to rely on manipulation to attain their goals rather than outright force of magic or might. It’s possible that like Seath, the Primordial Serpents were once Humans that sought transcendence but failed to properly complete the process. It should be noted that the Covetous Gold Serpent Ring aids in the discovery of items while the Covetous Silver Serpent Ring aids in the collection of souls, these abilities seem to correlate with Frampt’s ability to be fed items and Kaathe’s ability to be fed Humanity.

13- The Lordvessel is interesting in that to open the doors to the Kiln of the First Flame, you need to offer up the Lord Souls of Gwyn (in all its parts), Nito and The Witch of Izalith... but you’re not required to offer any of the Dark Soul from the Furtive Pygmy, despite it being a Lord Soul, to open the gates. Both Primordial Serpents are pushing for you to open the Kiln and it doesn’t matter if you want kindle the fire or let it die out, you need to kill the Gods in order to do it. If the Gods themselves ever wanted this plan to actually come to fruition, at the very least Lord Nito would have come with you and offered his Lord Soul to open the Kiln seeing as he has as much interest in making sure the Age of Fire continues as Lord Gwyn did. The Primordial Serpents were around before the Everlasting Dragons, they’re tied to the undead. I put forward that the Serpents wanted the Everlasting Dragons gone and now they want the Gods gone as well. It doesn’t matter to the Primordial Serpents if you kindle the fire or let it die out because it’s going to fade regardless. No matter if you help Frampt or Kaathe, both send you on a quest to kill the Gods and in time the Primordial Serpents will be the only beings of power that remain. Finally, the Caduceus is a motif seen upon many shields in the game, the Caduceus being the symbol of two intertwined snakes and symbolising – “a messenger of the gods and guide of the dead but also protector of merchants, shepherds, gamblers, liars, and thieves.”

14- There are a few points I’m unsure of, but I’m fairly certain they hold importance. We never see the surface of the world until Gwyn’s Age of Fire, the Everlasting Dragons appear to be flying around what is now Ash Lake and considering the Witch of Izalith burnt the Arch-Trees the new name seems appropriate. With the state of the surface world during the Age of Ancients in doubt, I’m not sure if Gwyn literally created the Sun himself or if it was always there, we know it’s possible to create the illusion of a Sun so nothing is out of the question. With this lack of information in mind, it’s not a stretch to imagine that he’s just a human who gained a powerful soul then took the surface and claimed to have created the sun itself.

15- Would it be possible that Oolacile and New Londo fell at roughly the same time? We know that Oolacile existed at the same time as Anor Londo, because we can see it atop the cliffs off in the distance while we're walking around the Royal Woods. This part is pure speculation, but the geography makes it look as though Oolacile was paved over and the Undead Burg/Parish/other walled-quarters of Lordran were simply built atop the ruins. When you take the path down to fight Kalameet you see a small river bed along with countless piles of lumber scattered across the place. It's possible that this was the beginning of the process they used to flood New Londo, as a dam is probably the only way possible to flood an underground city with this worlds level of technology. (Beyond magic that is, and you open a door to release the water that flooded New Londo, so I doubt a magical seal was used.)

Thoughts?
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Nevis_Ysbrid

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#2
Waaay too long. Most of these aren't new, and there are glaring issues with many of them.

We don't know that Gwyn goes hollow; it could be that that's just what he looks like after burning for 1000+ years. As for him being hostile... undead, hollow or otherwise, most people will go mad and likely violent during that.

A significant number of the Gods are giants/giant and harbor a closer relationship to the giants (explicitly a different race) than with humans. All of the texts imply that the people of Izalith are different as well, as much another race from humans as elves in Tolkienesque fantasy.

For as much as they go on about them being immortal, even deities are rarely ever truly such in any mythos. In Greek, deities died; in Norse, at Ragnarok, nearly all of them will. The (supposed, it's debated whether most of them are deities at all) divinities die left and right, and Dark Souls draws heavily on several Norse and Celtic themes.

We don't know that Velka harbors a grudge against the rest of the Gods; actually, there's pretty little known about her at all.

We don't know anything about incest (or lack thereof) in Dark Souls simply because the lore doesn't focus on that.

Seath is explicitly stated to be a dragon, not a human.

That the Everlasting Dragons were human... *facedesk* There's really nothing that suggests that short of outright wild guessing. Everything that we do know about them says that they're eternal unless killed and have existed since the beginning of the world, if there ever was one.

It's only guessed whose child Priscilla is, and her imprisonment has at least as much to do with her innate Lifehunt ability, which, as we've been told, is effectively an anti-god weapon.

There is absolutely nothing detailing why the Lords challenged the dragons. For all we know, they were completely content to sit there minding their own business until the Lords attacked them. Note that this parallels Odin rising up and destroying the giant Ymir (basically the ancestor of everything) that just slept there.

Seath is explicitly obsessed with attaining the essential immortality that comes with the stone scales of the Everlasting Dragons; in other words, he obsessed with turning himself into a normal Everlasting Dragon, not a human.

Sorcery using a dragon as it's emblem likely has more to do with that sorcery seems to have been invented by one-Seath the Scaleless. It's a tribute to it's creator.

Humanity are shards of the Dark Soul. For the Chosen Undead to put the Dark Soul in the Lordvessal, they'd have to put in at least as much humanity as the Dark Soul had (the shards may multiply). This may require that every single human other than the Chosen Undead be dead, which would defeat the whole problem (Gods/Fire versus Humans/Dark), besides being a blatantly unreachable goal.

We don't know that the Witch and her ilk burned the Arch Trees.

The question of whether Gwyn controls, created or is the sun is one unanswered. Which it is really determines a lot in what exactly the Age of Dark would be like.

While it's possible, it seems unlikely. The Sealers were not present, and if they fell at the same time, likely the Four Knights would have been spread out between the two or have the DLC deal with both. None of the items or characters in the DLC make mention of anything going on in New Londo, either.
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skarekrow13

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#3
Too much to comment on so I'll stick with the thing I've done the most on.... Priscilla.

There's very little evidence to support that she was imprisoned. Self exile seems far more likely to me or an exile pact with Ariamis. She may actually have scales to some degree. Her dress may be wings or the mutated aspect of such. The only potential evidence we have of who her parents are leads us to Seath and Gwynevere.

That's just my summary. I can elaborate on any points with the available evidence and of course everything is spotty and up to interpretation anyway so you're very free to ignore me ;)

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Mangootoyagi

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#4
1. I am pretty sure humans were around in the Age of Ancients.

2. This may be likely, but there is also a difference between Gods and Lords. Gods are beings like Flann, Gwyn, and Velka, who have a deity status, while Lords are what you just said, beings who became powerful through special souls, like the Witch of Izalith, Gravelord Nito, and also Gwyn, who is both. Aside from that, we can't really say much else because not much is known about Gods, only Lords.

3. This may be possible, but as the person above me said, it is unlikely that all of them came from Izalith, as there were Gods, Giants, humans, witches, etc. and the chances of them all coming from a city of witches doesn't seem very likely.

4. I don't quite see how the idea of different pantheons of gods has anything to do with them having been humans, but I don't think that the other gods turned Velka or the unnamed blacksmith deity into humans because we know that the former at least still has power. It is possible for the gods to just kick them out of the pantheon, but that doesn't necessarily mean they turn into humans. Velka seems like she just left on her own, and every bit of information about the unnamed blacksmith deity was obliterated, so we don't know about him at all. Plus, Velka's title as "rouge deity" explicitly states that she is still a deity, just a rogue one.

5. The Everlasting Dragons couldn't have been humans because they were there before humanity even existed. When the lore states that "they are neither alive nor dead", I think it just means that they are motionless as stone, since they really don't have a need to live actively seeing as how there is peace and they are immortal, sort of as if they are asleep. However, it is possible by the time the Chosen Undead arises that humans can become dragons, but I believe this is more of a technological or magical advancement than the reason how the dragons actually came to be.

6. If the dragons were humans, and one of her parents was a human who became a dragon, why would she have a tail if they weren't even a dragon yet? We also know from the Path of the Dragon covenant items that if a human becomes a dragon, they can't go back to a human. Thus, her dragon parent must have been in dragon form when she was born, which doesn't support that they were a human at one point. Even then, her being a child of a dragon and a god has nothing to do with the possibility the dragons or gods were humans.

7. You said it yourself, the dragons weren't alive nor dead. They likely weren't ruling over the gods, giants, humans, etc. with an iron fist of tyranny, they were just asleep, and maintained peace in the same area that the other beings arose. In order for their civilizations to flourish, the gods, giants, humans, etc. had to kill the Everlasting Dragons so that this perfect peace and order would end.

8. This might be true, but as said before, it is highly unlikely the dragons were once humans. Him having tentacles and whatnot was probably a side-effect of him being albino and scaleless. Also, what I think about him kidnapping maidens is that he saw the Undead, and how they are technically immortal because of Humanity. Seath seeks immortality, it's the only reason he wants the scales, but after seeing that Humanity brought the Undead immortality, he probably thought it would be a better idea to achieve immortality through Humanity. Since maidens have very high amounts of Humanity, Seath likely wanted them just for that.

9. First of all, he is insane. However, the Primordial Crystal still isn't true immortality, since we all know that a single attack to it removes his immortality. Also, as I've stated before, it is unlikely the dragons were once humans.

10. See numbers 8 and 9. He probably wanted maidens because of their high amounts of Humanity, which gave the Undead immortality, and again, it is unlikely the dragons were once humans for reasons stated in the first few points.

11. This isn't really strong evidence, first of all, and second of all, the fact that humans can transform into dragons now doesn't mean the first dragons were humans, especially since dragons were around before humans ever existed. Also, Logan is obsessed with Seath the Scaleless for his sorceries, him being a dragon has nothing to do with it.

12. Or, serpents could simply be beings who are "below" dragons, like drakes and wyverns. "Imperfect dragon" isn't necessarily literal. And while your note about the Serpent rings and their correlation to Frampt and Kaathe is interesting, it has nothing to do with your point.

13. The Dark Soul isn't a Lord Soul, it corresponds to Dark while the latter corresponds to Fire. As for the rest of your argument here, I actually do find it interesting and likely, especially since Frampt is seen alongside Kaathe if you don't kindle the Flame. I don't know why the gods and Lords didn't help the Chosen Undead though, since the Age of Dark means their loss of power... You are probably right on this one. ;)

14. This may be true, not much to be said here though since we already talked about gods and Lords earlier.

15. It may be likely that New Londo and Oolacile fell at the same time, since both fell to the Abyss, but I just wanted to point out that Oolacile actually becomes Darkroot Garden, as we can see the ruins and geography of the former in the latter. An example is that the area in which Kalameet is fought is the same area where the Hydra is fought. I recently found a collection of screenshots comparing Oolacile and Darkroot Garden that I can show you if you want.

*Phew*

Sorry for the long post, but it was a long post to reply to in the first place. :P
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Reaperfan

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#5
skarekrow13 wrote:The only potential evidence we have of who her parents are leads us to Seath and Gwynevere.


There's also evidence to suggest it may be Dusk rather than Gwynevere, though I can't remember the details right now.
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#6
Primarily the evidence for Dusk revolves around Oolacile magic offering light and illusionary magic and Priscilla's use of invisibility if I recall correctly. The Golem she's found in sure implies Seath wanted her for some reason. I think there's validity in thinking that Dusk may have played a part. As valid as any theory actually
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Mr_Rift

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#7
Acarnatia wrote:Waaay too long. Most of these aren't new, and there are glaring issues with many of them.


Heeeey.... thanks for the awesome welcome.

Acarnatia wrote:We don't know that Gwyn goes hollow; it could be that that's just what he looks like after burning for 1000+ years. As for him being hostile... undead, hollow or otherwise, most people will go mad and likely violent during that.


We don’t know that he’s not Hollow either, considering the tone of the game and insanity = being Hollow, it’s a pretty safe assumption.

Acarnatia wrote:A significant number of the Gods are giants/giant and harbor a closer relationship to the giants (explicitly a different race) than with humans. All of the texts imply that the people of Izalith are different as well, as much another race from humans as elves in Tolkienesque fantasy.


I can accept that there are Giants, but not that any of the Gods were Giants.

We see Gwyn and Gwyndolin and they’re both Human in size, and while it could be stated that Qwynevere is a Giant, she’s nothing more than an illusion in the game and therefore isn’t actually present for this to be verified.
As for there being different “races” of humans, do you mean sort of like the Knights of Berenike being bigger than most? Because they’re still classified as human, as the Izalith folk were... the whole game is pretty much about Humanity (live and undead) against the Gods, I doubt different races come into it.

Acarnatia wrote:We don't know that Velka harbors a grudge against the rest of the Gods; actually, there's pretty little known about her at all.


It’s heavily inferred that she took part in the Occult Rebellion and that her followers (Oswold the Pardoner) approve of when you kill a God.

Acarnatia wrote:That the Everlasting Dragons were human... *facedesk* There's really nothing that suggests that short of outright wild guessing. Everything that we do know about them says that they're eternal unless killed and have existed since the beginning of the world, if there ever was one.


Except for the fact that there are humans who can take on the aspect of Dragons. And that in DK2 there are Dragons who look like more evolved versions of these aspect based transformations.

The idea that Dragons were once human is not as farfetched as your face2desk intercourse would have us believe.
And the very word “eternal” means that they cannot be killed, which they can be, which implies that the “eternal” aspect of their name is just a bit of fluff on their part. They also said that they cannot be separated from their scales, and look how that turned out. The Chosen Undead wanders Lordran picking them up like nickels.

Acarnatia wrote:There is absolutely nothing detailing why the Lords challenged the dragons. For all we know, they were completely content to sit there minding their own business until the Lords attacked them. Note that this parallels Odin rising up and destroying the giant Ymir (basically the ancestor of everything) that just slept there.


You don’t challenge people for no reason, you thrown down with them on a whim sure, but you only ever “challenge” someone when you seek to overthrow them.

Acarnatia wrote:Seath is explicitly obsessed with attaining the essential immortality that comes with the stone scales of the Everlasting Dragons; in other words, he obsessed with turning himself into a normal Everlasting Dragon, not a human.


Yet we don’t find a single Stone Scale in his area of the game, instead he’s doing crazyass experiments in his tower turning women into tentacle beasts. Seriously, look at the intro video again, he’s not just an Albino Dragon, he’s a screwed up aberration – if there were ever a case for Dragonhood being a state that is attained and not born into, that is it.

The Chosen undead can collect more Stone Scales in 30 hours than Seath has ever seen, yet he’s be alive for thousands of years. *And* he has the primordial crystal, which Logan says is better than being a normal undead. There’s nothing, anywhere, that says he’s looking into the stone scales, he’s already got immortality so he’s looking for something else.

Acarnatia wrote:Sorcery using a dragon as it's emblem likely has more to do with that sorcery seems to have been invented by one-Seath the Scaleless. It's a tribute to it's creator.


All the Dragon emblems are of perfect dragon forms, not the wretched mass of tentacles that Seath is. If you were going to honour someone, you wouldn’t “pretty them up” on your emblems, that’d just piss them off.

Acarnatia wrote:We don't know that the Witch and her ilk burned the Arch Trees.


2:25 of the prologue, “The witches weaved great firestorms” and there’s a picture of the Archtrees burning... and it’s called Ashlake in the game. If you can’t accept this as fact at the very least then we’re gonna have some problems...

Mangootoyagi wrote:1. I am pretty sure humans were around in the Age of Ancients.


Exactly, there’s so much pointing to there already being an established culture when the Age of Fire begins.

Mangootoyagi wrote:2. This may be likely, but there is also a difference between Gods and Lords. Gods are beings like Flann, Gwyn, and Velka, who have a deity status, while Lords are what you just said, beings who became powerful through special souls, like the Witch of Izalith, Gravelord Nito, and also Gwyn, who is both. Aside from that, we can't really say much else because not much is known about Gods, only Lords.


I never made much difference between the two, the Blacksmith “God” died, so to me there wouldn’t be any difference.

I sort of see it like, you and your friends get super powers, then me and my mates get super powers as well. We each rule over our area of the world, then butt heads and refuse to recognise one another when we inevitably meet. Both our claims are just as valid (if not false) as the other, we just “ascended” at different times/areas.

Mangootoyagi wrote:3. This may be possible, but as the person above me said, it is unlikely that all of them came from Izalith, as there were Gods, Giants, humans, witches, etc. and the chances of them all coming from a city of witches doesn't seem very likely.


I’d say that many not all Humans came from Izalith, but that there were humans down there in the Age of Ancients and that that is where the Four Lords came from. Why would a God of Sunlight have a cave as a backdrop in the intro film otherwise?

Mangootoyagi wrote:4. I don't quite see how the idea of different pantheons of gods has anything to do with them having been humans, but I don't think that the other gods turned Velka or the unnamed blacksmith deity into humans because we know that the former at least still has power. It is possible for the gods to just kick them out of the pantheon, but that doesn't necessarily mean they turn into humans. Velka seems like she just left on her own, and every bit of information about the unnamed blacksmith deity was obliterated, so we don't know about him at all. Plus, Velka's title as "rouge deity" explicitly states that she is still a deity, just a rogue one.


I put this in because it suggests that they’re not “gods” in the true sense of the world, merely beings that ascended to god-like levels of power. If you’ve got a fantasy setting, usually the gods are all part of the same creation story, Dark Souls suggests that there are gods not in the “main group” which suggests that there are others out there who identify themselves as “gods.”

The so called Firstborn God of War had his deific status “rescinded,” this pretty much means that it was taken away and he was left without it. What was he left as? The most obvious answer is that he was left as a human, with his god like levels of power being that which were taken away from him.

As for Velka being a rogue deity, this totally works in this points favour. The other “gods” don’t recognize her claim to godhood, but she’s still out there causing mischief because they haven’t been able to stop her.

Mangootoyagi wrote:5. The Everlasting Dragons couldn't have been humans because they were there before humanity even existed. When the lore states that "they are neither alive nor dead", I think it just means that they are motionless as stone, since they really don't have a need to live actively seeing as how there is peace and they are immortal, sort of as if they are asleep. However, it is possible by the time the Chosen Undead arises that humans can become dragons, but I believe this is more of a technological or magical advancement than the reason how the dragons actually came to be.


See, I don’t buy the Everlasting Dragon story, it seems like it’s part of the creation myth, which as far as everyone can tell is total BS.

Mangootoyagi wrote:6. If the dragons were humans, and one of her parents was a human who became a dragon, why would she have a tail if they weren't even a dragon yet? We also know from the Path of the Dragon covenant items that if a human becomes a dragon, they can't go back to a human. Thus, her dragon parent must have been in dragon form when she was born, which doesn't support that they were a human at one point. Even then, her being a child of a dragon and a god has nothing to do with the possibility the dragons or gods were humans.


I missed what you’re trying to say here, sorry.

My idea on Priscilla is that a God (former human) and a Dragon (former human) banged, and they had this bigass halfbreed kid. The fact that her birth was possible could hint at the truth that Gods and Dragons have the same origins as mundane humans.

But that’s just on the assumption that Gods and Dragons were both simple humans at one stage... kinda what my whole theory is running with :P

Mangootoyagi wrote:7. You said it yourself, the dragons weren't alive nor dead. They likely weren't ruling over the gods, giants, humans, etc. with an iron fist of tyranny, they were just asleep, and maintained peace in the same area that the other beings arose. In order for their civilizations to flourish, the gods, giants, humans, etc. had to kill the Everlasting Dragons so that this perfect peace and order would end.


This is impossible to answer, being alive or dead, or neither or both doesn’t speak at all as to what the Everlasting Dragons were doing with their time. They could’ve been playing Yahtzee for all we know.

Mangootoyagi wrote:8. This might be true, but as said before, it is highly unlikely the dragons were once humans. Him having tentacles and whatnot was probably a side-effect of him being albino and scaleless. Also, what I think about him kidnapping maidens is that he saw the Undead, and how they are technically immortal because of Humanity. Seath seeks immortality, it's the only reason he wants the scales, but after seeing that Humanity brought the Undead immortality, he probably thought it would be a better idea to achieve immortality through Humanity. Since maidens have very high amounts of Humanity, Seath likely wanted them just for that.


Being born albino and scaleless I could understand, but being born with tentacles is some weird mutagenic **** that just isn’t mentioned anywhere in the series. If they had some sort of China Mieville “Torque Energy” warping effect in the series then I’d buy it, but Seath is the only creature that is all messed up.

And there are undead Dragons all over the place, but he has nothing at all to do with any of them. And again, he has the Primordial Crystal, he already has Immortality, I still think he’s looking for something else... like not being all freaky looking.

And considering his experiments are all freaky looking, I’d say that’s at least a tentative link there.

Mangootoyagi wrote:9. First of all, he is insane. However, the Primordial Crystal still isn't true immortality, since we all know that a single attack to it removes his immortality. Also, as I've stated before, it is unlikely the dragons were once humans.


And the Everlasting Dragons can have their scales removed and then killed, thus they don’t have true immortality either. One is just as good as the other, except I suppose the Primordial Crystal could be hidden (not kept on display in your living room...) thus it has the potential to be better.

And I’m still going with that they were once human, because humans can become dragons and there’s a whole society/covenant that desire it.

Mangootoyagi wrote:10. See numbers 8 and 9. He probably wanted maidens because of their high amounts of Humanity, which gave the Undead immortality, and again, it is unlikely the dragons were once humans for reasons stated in the first few points.


Again, see my rebuttals to your rebuttals :P

Mangootoyagi wrote:11. This isn't really strong evidence, first of all, and second of all, the fact that humans can transform into dragons now doesn't mean the first dragons were humans, especially since dragons were around before humans ever existed. Also, Logan is obsessed with Seath the Scaleless for his sorceries, him being a dragon has nothing to do with it.


We don’t actually know that Humans weren’t around when the dragons were. I still think Izalith was around in the Age of Ancients and that Gwyns knights were humans who fought with him against the dragons.

Mangootoyagi wrote:12. Or, serpents could simply be beings who are "below" dragons, like drakes and wyverns. "Imperfect dragon" isn't necessarily literal. And while your note about the Serpent rings and their correlation to Frampt and Kaathe is interesting, it has nothing to do with your point.


“Inferior” would give connotations of being lesser, “Imperfect” implies malformed, errors in construction and form as well as lesser.

And the point about the rings was just thrown in because it was interesting :P

Mangootoyagi wrote:13. The Dark Soul isn't a Lord Soul, it corresponds to Dark while the latter corresponds to Fire. As for the rest of your argument here, I actually do find it interesting and likely, especially since Frampt is seen alongside Kaathe if you don't kindle the Flame. I don't know why the gods and Lords didn't help the Chosen Undead though, since the Age of Dark means their loss of power... You are probably right on this one. ;)


So, they found the 3 Lord Souls plus one “Random and Lesser” Soul in the First Flame, all at the same time? I still put this down to the whole “Lord Souls in the First Flame” story being a creation myth that is more fiction than truth.

And yeah, the Serpents seem to have their own thing going on – a big plan that involves neither the Dragons or the Gods in the long run.

Mangootoyagi wrote:15. It may be likely that New Londo and Oolacile fell at the same time, since both fell to the Abyss, but I just wanted to point out that Oolacile actually becomes Darkroot Garden, as we can see the ruins and geography of the former in the latter. An example is that the area in which Kalameet is fought is the same area where the Hydra is fought. I recently found a collection of screenshots comparing Oolacile and Darkroot Garden that I can show you if you want.


The Royal Garden becomes Darkroot Garden, Oolacile(proper) is off to the side and fully sunken away in the present. Darkmoon Basin is what’s left of the area from where Kalameet flies in from, that big canyon area. Anything before the doors that require Artorias’ Seal to open is inaccessible in the past (the stares up there haven’t been built yet.)


Thanks to Mangootoyagi for an awesome discussion of these ideas, I'm open to them all being challenged. I'm aware that a lot of them are based upon wild guesses, but I run with guess and see if there's any evidence that backs them up. I've found a few points through the game that back up my ideas so far, but if there are any points that disprove them I'm willing to abandon them and start afresh.

So if I've rebutted any of your points, feel free to go and rebut my rebuttal of your rebuttal... we can keep doing this until one of us can't come up with a logical reason for our answers.

Awesome work, cheers again.

PS: Long posts are good :D

Shkar

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#8
Welcome to the forums. Too make it easier in the future, I won't be quoting such a long post. As such, please say if my post is not explaining something well enough.

In regards to the gods not being giants, this may or may not be the case. Gwynevere may or may not be giant; you are correct in that we have no way to know if she is or not. However, it is highly likely that the gods have the ability to at least grow to giant sizes, at least temporarily. Smough is giant, which on it's own just implies he was a giant, not a god. What's necessary to note, however, is that Ornstein grows to giant size when he absorbs Smough’s soul.

I can't recall anything suggesting Velka likes it when you kill a god. I remember the evidence people use to claim she was allied with the occult, but nothing saying she wants you to go around offing gods.

It's unlikely that the original dragons were humans because, twisted creation myth aside, the dragons are suggested to come from before the flame. Which, I'll admit, makes little sense to me either. But while one can make a claim that the dragons are neither alive or dead, one can't really make that distinction with humans (Personally I think the claim fails with dragons also, but I'm in the minority on that). That said, you and I share a belief that the lords challenged the dragons for a reason.

As for Seath, his tentacles don't have to be from a failed ascendance. The intro shows all the dragons being identical, but that's likely just because it's made using in-game models for most of it. In fact, we can clearly see that Kalameet looks different from the Bonfire Eternal Dragon, who looks different from the Gaping Dragon (ignoring his stomach), who looks different from Seath. Different beings, different bodies. That said, in regard to his image, I am pretty sure that North Korea would disagree about how powerful beings feel about their appearance.

Now, I don’t see why Seath WOULDN’T be studying the crystal, the undead, AND the Dragon Scales, each of which is seen to cause immortality of a sort. So far as we know, having one doesn’t mean the others won’t work. Seath is a mad genius who’s obsessed with immortality; why would he let everything ride on one possible point of failure, when he could have 3? For that matter, it is quite possible that the three sources work in different ways. The crystal prevents him from being harmed, undeath keeps you from actually “dying”, but clearly the dragon scales don’t keep one from being killed. So, immunity to disease or something. What exactly they do is guesswork.

If the dragons truly existed before the Flame of Disparity, then they should be perfectly neutral beings. Perhaps then the serpents are “imperfect” because they are not truly neutral; they align towards one view. Kaathe likes the dark, while Frampt likes the light.

I don’t think that “finding the lord souls” is literal. I always thought of it as more of an attunement or communion. Then again, I also believe that the first flame is, quite literally, the world’s soul.
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Nevis_Ysbrid

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#9
Mr Rift wrote:We don’t know that he’s not Hollow either, considering the tone of the game and insanity = being Hollow, it’s a pretty safe assumption.


That would make him the ONLY non-human to go Hollow, which would be weird. Also, there's no such thing as a 'safe assumption'; by being an assumption, it is inherently dangerous. Besides that, going Hollow isn't the only way to go insane. Logan and Seath both did, and neither had were a from going Hollow.

Also on the note, going Hollow is tied to the loss of Humanity-which is part of the Dark Soul. As the Gods are not descended from the bearer of the Dark Soul (and humanity seems to be anathemia to them), that they have humanity to lose and thus go hollow doesn't make sense, besides there being nothing in-game that suggests it.


Mr Rift wrote:I can accept that there are Giants, but not that any of the Gods were Giants.

We see Gwyn and Gwyndolin and they’re both Human in size, and while it could be stated that Qwynevere is a Giant, she’s nothing more than an illusion in the game and therefore isn’t actually present for this to be verified.
As for there being different “races” of humans, do you mean sort of like the Knights of Berenike being bigger than most? Because they’re still classified as human, as the Izalith folk were... the whole game is pretty much about Humanity (live and undead) against the Gods, I doubt different races come into it.


It isn't the main theme, which is Fire (the Gods) versus Dark (Humans). That doesn't mean that other races don't show up-namely, the Giants, people of Izalith, and so on. Nowhere are the people of Izalith mentioned as human; in fact, the dialogue we have from people from Izalith all sounds like something spoken to something 'different', like another race, and not once are the people of Izalith are mentioned as human, even though the race of every other city is explicit.

And, no, the people of Berenike are stated to be human; they're another ethnic group, not an entire other race.

The races are as follows:
Humans (Dark)
Gods (Fire)
Izalith (Chaos)
Giants
One could make an arguement for skeletons essentially becoming a race of the dead
Dragons
besides the various monsters/creatures


Mr Rift wrote:It’s heavily inferred that she took part in the Occult Rebellion and that her followers (Oswold the Pardoner) approve of when you kill a God.


That's a theory that has little more evidence than any other involving Velka. In regards to her 'approving' the player character killing a God, if you kill Gwyndolin/Gwynevere, then you have sinned for the entire playthrough (pardoning cannot remove it). It's not 'heavily inferred', even; it's a guess that isn't necessarily true because we don't have enough information on her.


Mr Rift wrote:Except for the fact that there are humans who can take on the aspect of Dragons. And that in DK2 there are Dragons who look like more evolved versions of these aspect based transformations.

The idea that Dragons were once human is not as farfetched as your face2desk intercourse would have us believe.
And the very word “eternal” means that they cannot be killed, which they can be, which implies that the “eternal” aspect of their name is just a bit of fluff on their part. They also said that they cannot be separated from their scales, and look how that turned out. The Chosen Undead wanders Lordran picking them up like nickels.



There was an entire war that drove them to the brink of extinction, so, yes, a few remains are to be expected. And we don't 'pick them up like nickels'; there's only ten per playthrough game aside from farming, which wasn't even originally an option (wyverns were patched to drop them).

That there are dragons looking like that in Dark 2 doesn't necessarily mean that they were dragon hybrids. Also, the dragons may not look like us; we look like them when becoming a hybrid. The dragon hybrid is blatantly turning into a form resembling the Ash Lake surviving Everlasting Dragon.

Eternal does not mean 'immortal'; it means that it lasts forever, not that it is unkillable.

It says that the dragons cannot be separated from the scales, not that the scales cannot be separated from the dragon. There is also how English is used to consider; while we say 'we can't breathe water', we technically can-it will just kill us. Similarly, dragons seem to lose their scales only upon mortal injuries or death.


Mr Rift wrote:You don’t challenge people for no reason, you thrown down with them on a whim sure, but you only ever “challenge” someone when you seek to overthrow them.


They were dragons, and were the race currently occupying much of the land. The word 'challenged' seems to be used because the dragons were that mighty. That they were tyrants or even preventing the Lords from doing anything by doing anything other than sitting there is entirely speculation, not something derived from in-game material.


Mr Rift wrote:Yet we don’t find a single Stone Scale in his area of the game, instead he’s doing crazyass experiments in his tower turning women into tentacle beasts. Seriously, look at the intro video again, he’s not just an Albino Dragon, he’s a screwed up aberration – if there were ever a case for Dragonhood being a state that is attained and not born into, that is it.

The Chosen undead can collect more Stone Scales in 30 hours than Seath has ever seen, yet he’s be alive for thousands of years. *And* he has the primordial crystal, which Logan says is better than being a normal undead. There’s nothing, anywhere, that says he’s looking into the stone scales, he’s already got immortality so he’s looking for something else.


The Lady of the Darkling/Darkmoon Knightess says exactly that. "At the Regal Archives, he immersed himself in research on scales of immortality, the one thing that he did not have. … But his very research drove him mad…"

As for why/how we went mad... FromSoft has used a wealth of Lovecraftian themes before, including 'knowing too much/the wrong things will drive you mad', and even in an extremely similar manner in Dark's predecessor Demon's Souls. This is implied to be what happened here, not hollowing.

As for the player character getting more... note that, by the end of the game, we kill all of the Lords (Seath himself included), possibly another deity, demons, dragons and Gwyn himself. Saying that we outdo Seath in that regard doesn't really mean much as the player character eventually outodoes beings far above even Seath.

Numerous of those scales are in areas Seath seems to have never gotten to-the Ash Lake, Blighttown-and others are harbored by still-living dragons, such as the Hellkite Drake and Gaping Dragon and in the Valley of Drakes and Painted World. Seath's agents may not have had the means to kill/capture these beasts (or even reach them amidst the violent, chaotic mess sprawling in Lordran) and there is a list of reasons why Seath may not have gone himself (involved in research, unable to fit in those areas, not allowed to go on an outright rampage by Gwyn, etc.).[/quote]


Mr Rift wrote:All the Dragon emblems are of perfect dragon forms, not the wretched mass of tentacles that Seath is. If you were going to honour someone, you wouldn’t “pretty them up” on your emblems, that’d just piss them off.


All real-life evidence to the contrary. How many famous figures have been grossly misrepresented in art for various reasons? Jesus has been depicted as of every ethnic group there is; the depictions of Saint Michael vary wildly. 'Prettying something up' for iconography isn't even umcommon, as disrespectful as it can be. In fact, until rather recently, it was more common and expected to change people's appearance in art to fit modern politics; it would have been viewed as weird if it wasn't.


Mr Rift wrote:2:25 of the prologue, “The witches weaved great firestorms” and there’s a picture of the Archtrees burning... and it’s called Ashlake in the game. If you can’t accept this as fact at the very least then we’re gonna have some problems...


That was blatantly condescending and self-righteous.

That isn't fact. Yes, a few trees got burned during a full-out war between fire Witches, Gods and armies wielding lightning, the first dead thing and dragons. There's nothing there saying all or even a significant proportion of them were destroyed. You came up with that, not the lore.

You also have done this repeatedly-passed off conjecture and 'facts' that don't come from the lore and presented them as such.


Mr Rift wrote:Exactly, there’s so much pointing to there already being an established culture when the Age of Fire begins.


Not necessarily. We don't know how long it was between when the Lords found their souls and when they attacked the dragons. Their civilization could have been built before then. We don't even know if they had the intelligence/comprehension to even make a civilization before they had souls.


Mr Rift wrote:As for Velka being a rogue deity, this totally works in this points favour. The other “gods” don’t recognize her claim to godhood, but she’s still out there causing mischief because they haven’t been able to stop her.


While Velka is a 'rogue diety', we don't know what exactly that means. The standard pantheon may be entirely indifferent about her and her being rogue is entirely voluntary on her part. Or, she may indeed be an outcast; the information given is vague.


Mr Rift wrote:See, I don’t buy the Everlasting Dragon story, it seems like it’s part of the creation myth, which as far as everyone can tell is total BS.


That last part (as far as everyone can tell is total BS) is arrogant, condescending and assumptive. Not everyone thinks that, and certainly aren't so insulting to the in-game lore.


Mr Rift wrote:My idea on Priscilla is that a God (former human) and a Dragon (former human) banged, and they had this bigass halfbreed kid. The fact that her birth was possible could hint at the truth that Gods and Dragons have the same origins as mundane humans.


Myths are full of strange crossbreeds-Dark Souls included, where we have Priscilla and whatever Gwyndolin is (he has a mass of tentacles instead of legs). The usual rules of biology and procreation obviously don't fully apply.


Mr Rift wrote:Being born albino and scaleless I could understand, but being born with tentacles is some weird mutagenic **** that just isn’t mentioned anywhere in the series. If they had some sort of China Mieville “Torque Energy” warping effect in the series then I’d buy it, but Seath is the only creature that is all messed up.

And there are undead Dragons all over the place, but he has nothing at all to do with any of them. And again, he has the Primordial Crystal, he already has Immortality, I still think he’s looking for something else... like not being all freaky looking.

And considering his experiments are all freaky looking, I’d say that’s at least a tentative link there.


Where the tentacles come from, we don't know. They may not be an unusual dragon feature; we haven't seen enough Everlasting Dragons to say, and many dragons have marine-life features (bristles and fins on the Ash Lake dragon, fins and such on the hydras...)

Also, Seath is where the Lovecraft themes come most strongly into play in Dark Souls, which has a thing for tentacles. There may just not be that much meaning in it.


Mr Rift wrote:We don’t actually know that Humans weren’t around when the dragons were. I still think Izalith was around in the Age of Ancients and that Gwyns knights were humans who fought with him against the dragons.


The Knights were definitely not human; they belong to either the Giants or another unnamed giant-like race including Artorias, Ornstein, the Silver Knights and probably Ciaran. Even if the gods are human, they aren't.


Mangootoyagi wrote:13. The Dark Soul isn't a Lord Soul, it corresponds to Dark while the latter corresponds to Fire. As for the rest of your argument here, I actually do find it interesting and likely, especially since Frampt is seen alongside Kaathe if you don't kindle the Flame. I don't know why the gods and Lords didn't help the Chosen Undead though, since the Age of Dark means their loss of power... You are probably right on this one. ;)


The Dark Souls is a Lord Soul, just a unique one.


Humans are all descended from the first human (pretty heavily implied to be the Furtive Pygmy) and all have humanity, a shard of the Dark Soul. The Gods are not descended from the Furtive Pygmy, being instead Gwyn's family and related to the Great Lord Soul. The Gods are as often of a different size as the same as humans.
I actually agree with you that they are not true 'gods'; however, I do not think they are human. They are another humanoid race, as different as elves to humans, who have powerful souls and pose as divinities in order to rule over and keep themselves safe from the humans. The people of Izalith are another humanoid race different from both, with the Giants and the Knights possibly being another race or part of the Giants.

EDIT: I got a edgy there myself. I apologize. Epileptic Trees are a button of mine, especially when passed off as or discounting actual evidence. While it wasn't attached to denote the individual ones, you did add a disclaimer about that at the end of your last post, and, either way, me being hostile is me being hostile.

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Adherent_of_Cinder

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#10
Humans were around in the Age of Ancients


Yes.

2- The God’s were once Human


The Devs have confirmed a few times that they are not human and are different from them. They were already Lords in their own right before the souls were gained. Not to mention that you have an entire city of gods and they didn't all have a Lord Soul.



3- She’s called “The Witch of Izalith,” she’s named after her profession and where she’s from



She is called a Witch because that is what she is and Izalith is where she reigned. Again, The devs stated (In the art book i think or a interview) that The witches were not human. Gwyn's gods were not human. The only humans are humans.

4- Another point that backs up the idea that the Gods are just Humans who’ve ascended, there’s different groups of Gods that seem totally unrelated. Gwyn and his pantheon seem to have nothing to do with Velka, Flann or even the unnamed Blacksmith Deity, Velka is in fact listed as a “Rogue Deity.”


Other than the fact being they are born as gods. Velka is probably a "rogue" because she only associates with herself. We don't really have context to understand that wording.All the gods don't need to live in Anor Londo seeing as there was New Londo and Drangleic has their own Gods.



5- The Everlasting Dragons were once Human as well.


No. The Dragons were dragons. The Devs even labeled them as "Semi-Sentient".



6- Backing up the notion that both the Gods and Dragons were once Human/Undead, Crossbreed Priscilla is thought to be the daughter of Seath and Qwynevere. She has a tail (or is it a conveniently placed tentacle?) and no scales. I think she was imprisoned to hide the fact of the shared origins of her parents, Gods and Dragons.



She could be an Experiment you don't really have to have sex to be a crossbreed if magic is involved. She was locked away because of her Lifedrain ability and that area has all of Velka's occult stuff as well. The Gods feared her and the occult (which is stated everywhere so i don't see how you missed that) so she was tucked away.


I put forward that the Everlasting Dragons, ruled over/terrorized the rest of Humankind in the Age of Ancients and that the Gods didn’t just attack them for no reason but that they were finally stepping up and overthrowing the



Just like Gwyn didn't harass the puny humans that weren't doing anything to him. Nearly all of this could have been found on the forum if you searched for it prior. I made a thread going into this and it seems that they just attacked the dragons because they could in addition to needing more land. We then talked about how it could have been the natural end of that cycle just as the Age of Dark was to come. Until Gwyn interfered because he didn't want that.


8- Seath the Scaleless – It’s assumed the he was just born a scaleless albino with tentacles.


Dragons are Dragons. The Drakes nor Hydras are Human. The Pisacas were human and they are massively distorted into tentacles.


9- Seath was given part of a Lord Soul and he has the Primordial Crystal, immortality is already well within his grasp so what is he researching? I think he’s trying to figure out a way to undo what he did to himself and return to Human form.


He discovered that after hundreds of years of research.... That didn't need to be clarified but i think Big Hat Logan does near the end of his story line.


11- Furthering the idea that Dragonhood is a state that can be attained


There is quite a difference in saying Humans could become Dragons and Saying the Everlasting Dragons were once human.


12- The Covetous Gold/Silver Serpent Rings state that “The serpent is an imperfect dragon and a symbol of the undead.” This backs up the notion that Dragonhood is a state of being that is created or attained with the possibility of failure, not one that an individual is born into. The Primordial Serpents



Dude, you ignoring all sense and reason to "support" this idea you have. The Serpents came before the Dragons by whatever means, and are imperfect. The Dragons came later and are "perfect" which is why Seathe was probably shunned. I don't post here often so i'll clarify that i am not to be condescending; but if you are going to make a theory you need to look at the faults in the theory and explain them, if not address them outright.


but you’re not required to offer any of the Dark Soul from the Furtive Pygmy, despite it being a Lord Soul, to open the gates.


Because that is DLC content and the Pygmy (being a human) Did so very long ago -_-


With this lack of information in mind, it’s not a stretch to imagine that he’s just a human who gained a powerful soul then took the surface and claimed to have created the sun itself.



He has an uncle named "All Father Llyod". We don't have any information on him but with the name "All Father" he was clearly important and probably a God. There is a picture in one of Epicname Bro's Vids with the Firstborn (IIRC) being held by his mother with a sword in hand. Again,showing that the gods are born into that. You then have Gwyndolin which Gwyn, Raised as a Daughter because of his affinity to the moon.



15- Would it be possible that Oolacile and New Londo fell at roughly the same time?


Seeing as the DLC takes place a few decades if not hundred years prior i doubt that. I'd expect Vamos to have made a comment linking the two. There are several NPCs that would/should have made a reference to that.
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