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Hugh_G_Johnson

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#1
I recently noticed that the wiki's Grant page said that the special AOE attack (or as I like to call it the "Super Wog") does not work with 200 or less durability. I knew that wasn't right, but I decided to see if it would work at any durability above 0. It does, but I noticed the damage was greatly reduced. I checked on another character with more faith and noticed there was a difference in the damage ratios at full durability and at 200. I leveled up my strength and was able to confirm that the Super Wog does indeed scale with strength as well as faith.

I also observed two more oddities. First; the Super Wog does exactly the same amount of damage as a 2-handed jumping attack in most circumstances. At 200 and less durability although you are able to do the Super Wog its damage output is the same a 2-handed broken Grant jumping attack. Of course with a broken Grant you can't do the Super Wog at all. But, other than those two circumstances the 2-handed jump attack will net the same damage as the Super Wog. Second; when I went to confirm that 200 was the cut-off point for the reduced damage by testing at 201 durability and found another damage value. I eventually was able to find that the upper limit for this damage tier was 380.
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#2
Interesting... But if I may ask, what enemies did you test this on? Could you try, say, testing it on multiple types of enemies in order to see if the jumping attack and 'Super WoG' are more or less the same in every situation?

And on that note, any way you could find a percentage decrease for the damage when in 201-380 Durability range?
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#3
So .. large on my screen.
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#4
I tested on the hollows in the Painted World and the Silver Knights. I tested with the following stats for str & fai: 50/30, 50/50 & 60/50. Since the super wog and the jump attack did the same damage reliably no matter the stat distribution (I've since done further testing with the same results), I can't help to conclude that the AR split and damage modifier for those attacks are identical. Thus, they should always do identical damage (save the noted exceptions*).

While I didn't note it in my post I included the approximate damage reductions in the wiki. Originally I had observed the first drop off to be to about 3/5 of maximum damage and the second is to about 1/3. And I noticed a fairly dramatic difference in the lowest damage bracket between my 50/30 character and my 50/50 character. However, with further testing I'm doubting the 1/3 figure entirely (I had around 37% and 30%) because I consistently got figures of 35-37% and the 3/5 was actually very steady at 62%. I was doing a lot of testing at less than 50 strength, however. I'll have to make a 50 strength character and test and different faith levels to get a clearer picture.

*For clarification (or confusion maybe) they're aren't really 'exceptions' to the identical damages of the 2-handed jump attack and the super wog -- in a sense. There are 3 'damage classes' for each attack that yield identical damages. It's just the 'damage classes' have different durability windows. IE; the 2-handed jump at 0 durability equals the wog from 1-200, the 2-handed jump at 1-200 equals the wog from 201-380 and the 2-handed jump attack above 200 equals the wog at above 380.

And yes, the R1 and R2 attacks also have 3 damages.
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#5
I did some more testing and found that altering str & faith only changed the damage rations for lower durability slightly. Not surprisingly; there's great variation between different enemies due to very different defense values.

There was one surprise, however. I still can't explain it, but I found that the Super Wog and the jump attack do different damages on Mushroom Parents and clams by chance while doing a PVE run in the Great Hollow. I confirmed that it wasn't somehow a phenomenon unique to the Great Hollow. The Parents in the forest also yield different damages. The numbers are extremely close, so I know I'm not doing instability damage. I have no explanation for this. Having tested with different stats on several enemies the previous results seemed to prove that the two attacks have the same AR split.

Hmm... I just came up with a theory! I wonder if these enemies are somehow slightly more resistant to jump attacks... my excitement to find out is slightly dulled by the prospect of testing a bunch of risky attacks on clams & Mushroom Parents. :straight face:
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#6
Lol those two enemies are evil!

There was talk that jump attacks changed the type of damage you do, so it could well be you are seeing that difference. I look forward to hearing of your horrible deaths research.
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Hugh_G_Johnson

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#7
Preliminary testing suggests my theory is correct. I also uncovered another curiosity: the Iaito 2-handed R2 and 2-handed jump attacks did the same damage to hollows in the Parish but not to Silver Knights. :-/ No deaths yet, but I did loose a tooth. All in all, however, testing is going well! Image


PS -- I just died before I could hit send to a right hook while double checking one last thing on the 'shrooms. :doh:

PPS -- I'm testing on a character that isn't through the archives yet... *sigh*
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Hugh_G_Johnson

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#8
Unfortunately, further testing (done around a NG++ gravelording in the forest) sort of unraveled any semblance of order. Different weapons on different enemies yield almost random values. Most of the time two-handed R2s do less damage than two-handed jump attacks but sometimes it does the same and sometimes it does more. There is absolutely no discernible pattern from what I can tell.
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#9
Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:Unfortunately, further testing (done around a NG++ gravelording in the forest) sort of unraveled any semblance of order. Different weapons on different enemies yield almost random values. Most of the time two-handed R2s do less damage than two-handed jump attacks but sometimes it does the same and sometimes it does more. There is absolutely no discernible pattern from what I can tell.
Were you doing direct damage that is explained in this vid? Stop at 3:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9aHLgiDxNc


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Hugh_G_Johnson

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#10
While I did not know that direct damage was a thing in Dark Souls (or ever find out exactly how it worked in Demon's) I tested multiple times to make sure I wasn't doing counter or instability damage. Also, I was using a lot of vertical strike weapons. One thing I do recall from testing was doing less damage than expected to an enemy at the very edge of the Grant Wog's range (I also recall seeing this with the normal wog a time or two). Perhaps direct hit damage applies to some spells/special attackes as well.




Oh, while I'm here I might as well mention that the Moonlight Greatsword's special attack damage values deteriorate similarly. Although there are different durability windows for the 1-handed and 2-handed varieties.
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