Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
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n3t

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#11
I have some small things bothering me to add to the thread, these are mostly logic based, and made me wonder about the npc's.
The goal isn't really to find an answer for these, it's to just think about it for a while and imagine some scenarios, I love that.

- How long has the crest fallen warrior been there? Surely he can't have been there for countless years? Surely that would've hollowed him? But he knows every npc that has visited the firelink shrine, and what's more important he's the only one seemingly aware of Frampt! How would he know if he himself has never rung the bell of awakening? This would mean that he was a witness to someone else ringing both bells and awakening the serpent, but how long do you imagine that was? I know time is warped in Lordran, but I still can't get over the fact that he's aware of Frampt, it amazes me.

- Why do the painting guardians forget their duty? Their clothes reveal that they have been protecting the painting for generations while having forgotten why, meaning that they were told at some point, didn't they think it important to pass this knowledge on to make sure future disciples know what they're fighting for and won't at some point abandon post thinking they're just protecting a stupid painting?

Also how did the doll end up in the Undead Asylum?

- Why is the hydra triggered by us but not by crystal golems?

- In the New Londo ruins, there are vengefull ghosts everywhere and Ingward (the guardian of the seal) says that he "never gets a visitor, other than ghosts", meaning that he encounters ghosts quite often. Why are these ghosts not agressive against the man who was partly responsible for their demise? If I got drowned for the mistake of some other person, and It forced me to haunt ruins forever, i'd be a little pissy with the guy responsible.

- Where do mimics come from?

- Why does the shopkeeper who sells boss armor (with the weird outfit) pick such horrible spots to set up shop, this man did not go to marketing school.
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dn1nd

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#12
Most answers I can give you will be speculation.

But I'll give you my best guesses.

In order to see Frampt the Crestfallen warrior only needed to watch Oscar of Astora or Iron Tarkus fail at their quests.

With the Painting Guardians, I'm just going to assume Hollowing is a factor in the forgetting.

My guess is a Black Knight brought the doll to the Asylum.

Maybe being a dragon makes it see better than the Golems. That and the Golems seem to lack eyes.

I'm just going to go with Game Mechanics. Otherwise he would die before you ever meet him.


Apparantly it was a greedy race that got cursed. As for specifics...Well no one knows.
Monsters head resembling a treasure chest. Once an ancient god, it is said this is the symbol of shame imposed on a long lost clan, exiled for the sin of avarice.
Wearing this slightly raises soul absorbtion and item discovery, but also affects its wearer with the curse of the branded.


Maybe it was to make it hard for hollows to seek him out since he would be collecting a lot of souls.

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XYZsolution

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#13
The dark doesn't need the first flame to survive though. "Soon the flames will fade and only dark will remain.'" Humanity doesn't need the first flame to survive. The gods do, however.
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TSMP

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#14
XYZsolution wrote:The dark doesn't need the first flame to survive though. "Soon the flames will fade and only dark will remain.'" Humanity doesn't need the first flame to survive. The gods do, however.


Makes me wonder how true the opposite is. It's implied more than once that the human form as seen in the game isn't necessarily the real human form, and then there's the multiple cases of humans turning into freaky eldritch **** when exposed to too much dark.

dn1nd wrote:@tsmp,

When I mentioned using the Darksign and it consuming your Humanity, I was referring to the Soft Humanity held in the Counter, not the being in Human/Revived form.

Even says in the description it takes your humanity.

The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go hollow.
Death triggers the Darksign, which returns its bearer to the last bonfire rested at, but at the cost of all humanity and souls


I just loaded and tested this in DS1 and It does take your humanity when you use the Darksign.


The issue with the Primordial Crystal id we can only speculate on its significance. We do not know exactly how it grants invulnerability or even how many can be affected.


Does it? I'm sorry, I'd completely forgotten about that.

n3t wrote:You guys talk about the primordial crystal a lot like it just has an immortal aura that makes everything untouchable, but don't forget seath had to go through years of archives and experiments until he could actually use the cristal for immortality, and not without using the power of crystals on himself changing his appearance and apparently making him blind.

When the war was fought, I don't think the dragons could use it to become invulnerable, if they could then why would Seath struggle for so long to make it work on himself? The scales surely can't be the reason why dragons could randomly use a crystal for immortality? Nothing else is different between Seath and his kin.

What do you think?


Seath's appearance remains unchanged from the dragon war, as seen in the cutscene, so saying that he used the power of crystals to change his appearance and become blind is... unfounded. As far as it's possible to know, Seath was always that way. Unless there's something in the game that explicitly says he wasn't (which would contradict the cutscene), then the best guess is that he's always been a blind, legless, half-crystallized fairy dragon.

There's nothing in the game that states Seath had to study the crystal for X amount of time before he could access it, either. I'm fairly certain I made no mention of time one way or the other, specifically because the game doesn't specify.

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#15
Nice post !

1) I agree with most of this except with dark being a balancing force. By looks of all the dark influenced areas in all the games, this darkness is vicious, devouring everything in a pitch black abyss. Maybe you meant 'balancing' by the fact that humanity seems to be the fuel that feeds the Fires. I think this is very clear in Dark Souls 2 and on where the abyssal monsters are very weak against fire. So while the Age of Fire is ever waning, the Age of Darkness is unstable because it's like a giant sea of a oil - one spark and everything is set ablaze, restarting the cycle. In that case I agree with you.

About other creature being undead, notice in japanese the term undead when referring to the human undeads that eventually go hollow and when referring to other creatures are different. Curse of the undead is literally translated as "curse of the immortals", same thing for the undead asylum (Northern Immortal's Institution), undead burgs (Immortal Burgs) and so on. However the undead dragon is not 'immortal dragon' but 'zombie dragon', setting apart that particular creature and the cursed being that bear the darksign, go hollow, drink estus and gets revived by bonfires. And as far as we know humans are the only ones subject to that state.

2) Seems like a valid theory but everything predating the finding of the Fires by the four Lords is incredibly muddy and lacking in detail. "From the dark they came" may mean a bunch of people from the same race or a bunch of people from different races, there's no way to tell. Personally I skeptical of this because the game never suggest this. Even Kaathe who despises Gwyn don't unmask this particular falsehood.

3) For me it was always clear that Seath achieved his goal via the crystal (his invulnerable until you go there and break it) but this costed his sanity.
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Dragonscholar

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#16
On the Primordial Crystal, I think we should combine the two obvious pieces of lore: Logan's dialogue and the Moonlight Greatsword'sdescription, which state:

"Ah, the secret of Seath's immortality? If you have fought him, and were imprisoned, you must know that Seath is a true Undead, different from ourselves. His wounds close promptly, and no mortal blow affects him, granting true insulation from death. It is an effect of the Primordial Crystal, a sacred treasure pillaged by Seath when he turned upon the ancient dragons. So, only by destroying the Primordial Crystal can you so much as scratch his hide. And it so happens, the Primordial Crystal is in the inner garden of these very archives, the Crystal Forest."

"Seath is the grandfather of sorcery, and this sword is imbued with his magic, which shall be unleashed as a wave of moonlight."

I also need to add that I think Everlasting Dragons are immortal by being at least partly mineral beings (rather than organic). They are timeless entitities by not being "alive" in a biological sense. In an interview, Miyazaki said:
"Miyazaki: The Stone Dragon is not alive. The Ancient Dragons are half living, half element. So there's not pain for them. In the opening, it's shown that they were there before there was life, so they don't feel pain, kind of like Akuma Shogun."

Now, to link this with the Primordial Crystal, I'd speculate that it is the source of the dragon's origins. It is the soure of sorcery/magic in the world of Dark Souls and the mineral from which dragons originated. That would explain (1) Seath's fascination for crystals, seeing how his birth defects as a dragon obsessed him; (2) the link between sorcery and crystals; (3) how Seath studying the crystal made him the grandfather of sorcery, by learning how other beings can learn to harness magic in the form of sorceries.

To further indicate this, you can read the Crystal Scroll's description:
"These sorceries are the work of the paledrake, Seath the Scaleless, whom Logan is said to have met, a branch of sorcery that has been carried on by the Crystal Sages."

Finally, I think it might be tied with Midir's Old Moonlight description, one of the very few mentions of a dragon's origins:
"The sword is named after moonlight, but it is slightly different than the one fashioned of the paledrake Seath. Perhaps it is rooted in an older memory, from not long after the Beginning."

italofoca

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#17
Dragonscholar wrote:Now, to link this with the Primordial Crystal, I'd speculate that it is the source of the dragon's origins. It is the soure of sorcery/magic in the world of Dark Souls and the mineral from which dragons originated. That would explain (1) Seath's fascination for crystals, seeing how his birth defects as a dragon obsessed him; (2) the link between sorcery and crystals; (3) how Seath studying the crystal made him the grandfather of sorcery, by learning how other beings can learn to harness magic in the form of sorceries.


Personally I think the crystal is a element that composes the inorganic everlasting dragons. Something akin to their hearts and/or their brain.

I believe so because the way the game and Miyazaki (in that very interview) talks about the stone dragon suggest they are inherently immortal because they are not alive. If that is the case it is strange that the dragons needs a external source of immortality. So I think the primordial crystal was simply a particularly important part of the everlasting dragons. Possibly a part Seath is missing.

Agree with the primordial crystal being the core of Seath's work. I always thought all the crystals in Seath's domain are either: Seath trying to create replicas of the primordial crystal to grant him immortality; a byproduct of his experimenting on the crystal to simply understand it; a by product of his attempt to mutate and change the crystal in such way it would make him immortal. It could be all or neither of these. But in the end I think it is something along these lines.

About the link between crystals and sorcery, I'm not so sure about that. I think in DaS lore it's always a bad idea to give everything in a broad category a single origin. For example, we know that the Witch of Izalith and possibly the whole civilization she was part of used fire sorceries which are likely unrelated to Seath. Oolacile sorceries are also very different and possibly totally unrelated to this. I see a similar mistake when people try to argue for Velka's miracle being dark and because of that her origins are related to the Abyss/Pygmy/Humanity
something that alright contradicts her non-implemented covenant (hunting down sinners including Darkwraith).

This all comes from a strange assumption that spells are originated from primordial forces or places like the abyss, the fire or the original Lord souls. However what the game establishes over and over is that spells are created by people. We have Great Swamp pyromancies, pyromancies from Izalith and from foreign unknown lands. We have miracles from old gods like Gwyn and new ones like Gertrude.

Maybe these primordial forces are the means some people use to 'create' new forms of magical arts but as far as I can tell the origin of magic spells are people who created then. Establishing "the source of sorcery is the primordial crystal" is as weird is saying the source of David sculpture is ivory and not Michelangelo.
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#18
Some serious thread necromancy going here.
Nice discussion!
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