Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
 4
Reply  
Avatar

PlayerSlayer120

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 am
Location: America. (Ah yes, the motherland.)
Souls: 2,261.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 430
Reputation: 8
#31
Priscilla was an abomination, and she practically says that she feels "normal" there.

CakeThiefPro

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 1,700.00
Posts: 489
Reputation: 13
#32
Windy98 wrote:Whilst she wasn't a knight during the war, she earned her knighthood by assassinating influencial enemies.

It is also, commonly accepted, however that when Gwyn pealed back a scale with one of his lightning bolts, or Gough with a great arrow, Ciaran could fit into the gap left, and cut away quickly, Poisoning and Bleeding the Dragon's exposed flesh.

I think you've done very well on the other questions, though. :biggrin:


Thanks :3

I never knew about the Ciraran theory although it definitely sounds badass.
Avatar

PlayerSlayer120

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 am
Location: America. (Ah yes, the motherland.)
Souls: 2,261.00
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 430
Reputation: 8
#33
What is the deal with all of the asylum demons?
Avatar

Nahztek

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 am
Location: My own quiet corner of the Abyss.
Souls: 2,875.00
Posts: 574
Reputation: 37
#34
CakeThiefPro wrote:
Windy98 wrote:Whilst she wasn't a knight during the war, she earned her knighthood by assassinating influencial enemies.

It is also, commonly accepted, however that when Gwyn pealed back a scale with one of his lightning bolts, or Gough with a great arrow, Ciaran could fit into the gap left, and cut away quickly, Poisoning and Bleeding the Dragon's exposed flesh.

I think you've done very well on the other questions, though. :biggrin:


Thanks :3

I never knew about the Ciraran theory although it definitely sounds badass.



yeah. I got some awesome mental images from reading that.


great thread!

my question-

is it only Humanity/the Dark Soul that separated Humans from the races of the other Lords?

what separates the other Gods from the 4 Lords? (did they just gain a mass of souls? are they children of the Lords?)
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
- The Prophet

CakeThiefPro

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 1,700.00
Posts: 489
Reputation: 13
#35
Nahztek wrote:yeah. I got some awesome mental images from reading that.

great thread!

my question-

is it only Humanity/the Dark Soul that separated Humans from the races of the other Lords?

what separates the other Gods from the 4 Lords? (did they just gain a mass of souls? are they children of the Lords?)


Damn, both of those questions are really interesting but pretty hard to answer. The dialogue from Ciran and Gough (I think?) does suggest that they are something other than human just based on the way they refer to us as "you humans, always taking what you want" (that might not be the direct quote because this is from memory but I think it's along those lines).

Having said this, I still think humans are the same race as Gwyn and the other lords. In the opening the narrator says "from the dark they came" and then you are shown what appear to be a lot of hollows rising out of the earth. I think Gwyn, Nito and the Witch were all hollows as well. The first flame was exactly that, I giant mass of energy/souls but each of the four lords chose to use and manipulate the energy in a different way until they almost became different races.

I believe Gwyn wanted the power to smite down the dragons and rule the giants so he created the lightning bolt (possibly the most powerful soul weapon ever created). On top of this we've seen that parts of Gwyns soul can be regenerative such as with Ornstein and Smough as well as regular healing miracles originating with Gwynevere I suspect. This would have been a useful ability in the war against the dragons and if we take Dk2 into account, being hollow makes you weaker but perhaps Gwyn took the restoration process to a new level and decided to become even bigger a bit like Bain taking Venom. For the most part they are somewhere inbetween giants and humans (Artorias, Ornstein and Gwyn) however we've also seen Ciran and Gwyndolin who appear much smaller. You could also argue that Havel is potentially human size or returned to it after being defeated depending on your opinion about Havels whereabouts. Gwyn looks pretty damned human to me at least and more importantly I believe the "Gods" all act distinctly human, maybe they used the power of Gwyns soul to become bigger and stronger but I believe they were all originally human.

Similarly the Witch had an obsession with fire (that every pyromancer must have according to the first pyromancer we meet) possibly stemming from seeing the first flame. Her daughters even appear human in size so perhaps she was only willing to spend a small amount of power on restoring them. We've seen from the Orange Ring that the Witch could manipulate her soul to heal people if she desired so I do believe that it was possible. Also Ceaseless is possibly the best example of the souls ability to manipulate and transform peoples appearances but there is no evidence to suggest he was ever part of a separate race.

In contrast, the pygmy used the souls from the first flame but never left the dark or at least remembered where he had come from. Firstly I should state that I think Manus is the furtive pygmy due to his ability to manipulate the dark soul, his strength, Dk2 lore and the fact it would just make sense to have all four lords represented imo. Obviously Manus changes form dramatically from the hollow we see in the opening to the terrifying boss fight in game but does that mean we shouldn't still consider him human to some extent? I think that the abyss was originally formed at the same time as the flame and that Manus was inspired by it or considered it his home and therefore manipulated his soul into a power that could expand the realm of the abyss.

There's clearly some lost history regarding Manus as he was already sealed below Oolacile and upon re-awakening he is enraged by his desire for his broken pendant. The description of the Silver Pendant (which I'll admit I did look up) refers to it as an "ancient weapon of Anor Londo" which means that Gwyn had potentially already fought and defeated Manus. Gwyn may have even spared Manus because he knew that he could never really be destroyed and was better off left contained although that's extreme speculation. Manus appears to have designed his soul to seek out and destroy all others which would result in it being the supreme and only surviving soul. Clearly this has never quite worked out but for some reason Manus wanted to defeat the other Lords. Perhaps he felt betrayed by the "Gods" who abandoned the majority of humans while he used the power of his soul to empower all humans. Or maybe he was a power hungry maniac that just wanted to destroy everything and thrive in the darkness. Either way, I believe he and Gwyn came from the same place and were the same race before the souls were found.

Nito is a mystery for a variety of reasons but I feel I need to clarify some things before I discuss him. Before Dk2 was released I had a couple of wild theories revolving around the giants and this untold battle or war that occured. Once Dk2 was released I felt like it confirmed a lot of my basic ideas surrounding them with the major difference being the giants in Dk1 had to fight either Eternal Dragons or Gwyn whose lord soul (possibly with aid from the Witch and Nito or potentially alone) was enough to completely wipeout the dragons while the Iron King couldn't kill one dragon imo. Thus their story was a lot less significant in Dk1 as the battle was extremely one sided.

I'm going to try and refrain from delving into my Kiln theory but Nito's race is somewhat unclear. Before going into the giant theory I will discuss whether Nito was a hollow or a collective of hollows that died near the first flame and that its power brought them back to life which is where Nito's obsession with death came from. Maybe Nito was killed by a Basilisk, a Dragons, natural causes(assuming that was possible?) or even Manus when he was a hollow. Nito may have then tried to reanimate dead bodies and perhaps even gave them a soul. We know that Vamos probably has some history with Izalith but more importantly he proves that skeletons could be intelligent and have conscious thought. There's also the fact that baby skeletons appear from strange pools of water which could suggest that they are indeed their own race. I think I remember someone claiming Nito wore a cape of humanity which could have been a simple design that suited death rather well. Or it's possible that skeletons when mixed with humanity could have their souls if not their bodies restored especially when combined with the power of Nitos soul. I mean the Witch tried to use humanity to recreate the first flame (at least that's what I believe considering the chaos flame appears to have some connection with humanity). It's not entirely clear what happens when Lord Souls mix but it is possible that the skeletons could be considered a race.

I don't know if Nito is a giant or not but I do believe the giants are a separate race on their own. Primarily I believe this because they appear to be giants without any form a soul power or interference. There's nothing to suggest Hawkeye Gough has been given a part of Gwyns power or that the giants in Sens Fortress have either. Only the largest two who wield miracles have been given power as far as I can tell. Also the giants in Sens Fortress are enslaved in chains which to me suggests they were conquered and judged for their lack of intelligence considering the black smith and Gough both talk quite slowly while the rest don't seem to talk at all. There was also some prejudice towards Hawkeye Gough for being a giant as his eye holes were filled with resin. Gwyn may have rewarded him with armour for his strength but I don't think any of Gwyns men would have put resin in the eye holes of any other of the four knights. There is also the Tomb of the Giants which again suggests they were their own race as it is named after them. Nito was either using their power to serve and protect himself (as Gwyn does) or he has surrounded himself with them because they are his brothers and he fought with them at some point. The giants in the tomb are not the same size as the ones in Sens but again it is quite difficult to judge based on size as their area would work very differently if they were the same size. What is known is that they are all referred to as giants while no one ever speaks of the Gods race by name. I also think Dk2 and the cycle theory reinforce this belief if you want to take Dk2 lore into account.

Overall I'd say that if their is a difference in race between humans and the "Lords" it is due both to the dark soul and to Gwyns/The Witches soul. Souls can be used to achieve almost anything in Lordran although I do believe they all originated from the same place and race. Ok this has been a lot but if you're still with me I'll answer question 2.

What separates the other Gods from the 4 Lords is different levels of power. All soul power seems to have originated in the first flame and any other lord that wields this power has probably been given it. Primarily Gwyn handed out fragments of his soul to empower his followers although the Witch and Nito also did this to a lesser extent. Each individual may wield the power differently depending on their nature but the only thing separating the 4 Lords is that they found the souls and therefore received the most power. The God of War decided to create a miracle to enhance his weapons, the Four Kings were manipulated into creating (or recreating) the art of life drain.

The only exception is potentially Seath. In Dk2 Seath is worthy of his own Lord Soul. In Dk1 the opening sequence shows Seath on a mountain of Ever Lasting Dragon bodies. This is probably a result of the primordial crystal but he also managed to reinforce a fragment of Gwyns Lord Soul into a Lord Soul of its own with his research into crystals and souls. The Soul Spear is also comparable to Gwyns Lightning Spear so everything would suggest Seath is effectively a 5th or even 6th Lord if you consider the Chosen Undead as a Lord in their own right. No other Lord seems to have been able to achieve this however and even Gwyndolin seems restricted by the amount of power his father left him (even if that is a considerable amount).

Another exception could be the Black Smith deity who designed the Gods weapons with titanite that appears to be a natural phenomenon somewhat like the First Flame. He was killed or executed however possibly due to being able to create Occult weapons that threaten the Gods or because he created Priscilla's Lifehunt Scythe. Either way it would appear there are methods of obtaining power beyond Souls but most stem from some force of nature.
Avatar

Nahztek

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 am
Location: My own quiet corner of the Abyss.
Souls: 2,875.00
Posts: 574
Reputation: 37
#36
CakeThiefPro wrote:
Damn, both of those questions are really interesting but pretty hard to answer.




I know. :devil:


it was very unfair of me to ask even one of those questions (let alone both!) because they are unanswerable without theory-crafting (which you had ready).

but I really appreciate the effort you took with that.
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
- The Prophet

CakeThiefPro

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 1,700.00
Posts: 489
Reputation: 13
#37
Nahztek wrote:
CakeThiefPro wrote:
Damn, both of those questions are really interesting but pretty hard to answer.




I know. :devil:


it was very unfair of me to ask even one of those questions (let alone both!) because they are unanswerable without theory-crafting (which you had ready).

but I really appreciate the effort you took with that.


I really enjoyed it to be honest, although looking back at some of the spelling errors is a little cringe worthy.

I didn't answer question 2 in quite as much depth as I possibly could have due to the length of my first answer but I feel the fundamental answer to the question is there. One thing I'd like to add is about the Witch.

The Witch's family all seem really close and caring, for example Ceaseless watches over one of his sisters corpses, one sister guards their mother (and possibly two more sisters) and Quelaag spends her time hunting undead to help her sister. I imagine they got this nature from the Witch who probably did give them a large amount of power. Even in the opening they are right there with her to weave firestorm. This doesn't mean they were quite equal with their mother as the Silver Knights certainly weren't equal with Gwyn but I'd argue they came about as close as possible until the failed experiment threw everything into disarray. Quelana definitely deserves some credit for inventing the original pyromancy spells after the failed attempt to recreate the first flame and you could argue that she was using the power of two Lord Souls to do it. Despite this, there's no evidence to suggest she ever became as powerful as her Mother unfortunately and no one else ever seems to have experimented with mixing the Lord Souls.
Avatar

Nahztek

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 am
Location: My own quiet corner of the Abyss.
Souls: 2,875.00
Posts: 574
Reputation: 37
#38
yeah, learning more about the Witch and her family is what originally drew me into DS lore.


but here's something concerning the 4 Lord Souls and how they might represent the cycle of Flame/Dark.

(this is very random, but it doesn't look like much happens in the DS1 forum now that DS2 is out, and I'll keep the questions coming)

Gwyn was at the top of the Lord Hierarchy and his Soul granted him the power of lightning. (light)

the Witch controlled fire itself. (strong flame)

Nito's soul is lessened because he offered so much of it to the dead. (dying flame)

Furtive Pygmy's lack of involvement with the other Lords is enough to consider him at the bottom of the Hierarchy. he has a unique Dark Soul. (dark)

it is almost like their roles as keepers of the Lord Souls are anthropomorphic representations of the Flame's cycle. and the Dark Soul is in place as a trigger to restart the cycle (the Flame needs Dark and vice-versa)

The Age of Fire began and the Dark Soul was shattered (much like darkness in light, figuratively speaking of course).

this was the first spreading of the Dark. within humans.
as they procreated, the Dark spread, growing stronger, but hiding inside of humans as little sprites in wait of the Dark Age, when the Flame is extinguished.

but then Gwyn started making humans burn their Humanity in bonfires.
it's not like he snapped his fingers and bonfires appeared.
someone had to make them and someone had to figure out HOW to make them work.

Seath seems like a likely culprit behind any experimentations in DS.

I would even go so far as to say that Seath created the Lord's Vessel, and later, Firekeeper Souls.

the Lord's Vessel might just be used as a lock on the Kiln when we come across it, but I think it is reasonable to conclude that it was once used to divvy out shards of souls from the Lord Souls.

(using DS2 lore here- there is a shattered Lord's Vessel in Majula Mansion and inside the chest is a 'soul vessel' which looks like a chunk of the Lord Vessel swathed in soul energy. the item description tells us that you put your souls inside the stone, and then take them back out. this could be alluding to how it was once used to divvy out souls)

after all, Seath gained the first shard that Gwyn gave out, and he is knowledgeable enough on things like the Soul that it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that he is the one who figured out HOW to get a 'piece of that soul!"

(much of that theory is ignoring how we just hand souls over to merchants without the need of any kind of vessel. but I hate putting game mechanics over interesting connections)

I suggest that he created Firekeepers because of a few things.
he commonly experimented on women.
he is a master of Soul magic (sorcery), which is manipulation of the Flame.
there is a Firekeeper Soul in the huge cell.
what if Priscilla was meant to be the Firekeeper of the First Flame, but the experiment failed? half-human, half-dragon, she would be the perfect eternal Firekeeper so that the First Flame never fades.

DS2-
I think Aldia/Vendrick learned how to create the Emerald Herald from reading the book in Majula Manison, which I believe they pillaged from the remnants of Duke's Archives. the book had notes about how to create bonfires, firekeepers, golems, and Dragons (Priscilla).

my point with all that, is that Seath is anathema to Dark and was in Gwyn's ear telling him how to stop the Dark Age.
Seath is... the 'great contradiction' of the DS universe. and I'm not talking about plot holes but on a metaphysical level.

(tangent ahead! about to get crazy..)

while Seath is anathema to Dark, he is also it's counterpart.
human emotions are tied to Humanity/Dark, but when existence was naught but an emotionless expanse of gray stone and mist, a singular creature of vulnerable flesh and raw emotion existed.

was Seath a devil character? playing the role of fallen angel versus his Ancient Dragon brothers?

or was he a creator god? he burned with a hatred for his brothers, who were emotionless statues, more or less. if Seath was the only conscious being when it was all nothingness (emotionless gray), is it far-fetched to think that his rage is what created the First Flame?

DS2- we learn from the Japanese description of the Ancient Dragon Soul that a Dragon once 'wanted' a soul dearly that it created one of its own.
- The special soul of this dragon,
created by his pursuit of the abyss of souls-

so since Seath existed before the Flame came into being, and he burned with a rage for his kin, and if his kin are just beings who are at one with the nothingness of existence, and he is their 'betrayer', then wouldn't he perfectly fall into place as the creator of the flame (the Flame being a separate embodiment of his emotion)

it makes more sense than the Flame just appearing for no reason, and Seath is the type to tinker with things and figure out how to make them work to his advantage.

an interesting note about that.
Seath is called the 'Grandfather' of Sorcery. if sorcery is just manipulation of the Soul, and the Soul is from the Flame, wouldn't that make Seath the 'Father' of Flame?

it is also interesting that Seath's Keep is at the top of Lordran. :devil:

ok. that was all to just show Seath's possible agenda and importance, for no particular reason other than to see if you can shed any light on my interpretations (which are always open to new ideas).


so the bonfires were created by the Lords to interrupt the cycle. Seath was the mastermind, and the other three added their own parts in the creation.
a bonfire is made up of three parts.

Gwyn- sword
Nito- undead bones
Witch- Flame (this also might be where the Witch got the idea from to recreate the First Flame with her soul, out of desperation)

to me, the construction of a bonfire shows the implication of a group effort by the Lords.


continuing...
Seath knew that the fire would die out and that the Dark Soul (the embodiment of his dark/want) would be his own end.
but he also knows that he can use Humanity to strengthen the Flame because it was his emotion that sparked the Flame to life. one feeds on the other.

it is like the Ouroboros, the serpent (or dragon) eating its own tail, which is a creation mythos.

taken from wiki-
-The Ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished.-



this sounds much like Flame/Dark/Soul/Humanity in DS, yet the Ouroboros is depicted as a dragon eating its own tail.
for me, this is an undeniable correlation. however, I have been obsessed with such things long before even 'Demon's Souls' existed, so it's just my nature to relate things in this way.


so, I realize that I have taken this way too far.
if you actually read all that, and are interested to continue with this method of extremely long-winded and random questioning, then please feel free to take any questions or interpretations from the above ramblings and share your perspective.

if you feel that this is too much for your trivia thread, I am sorry. I can erase this and paste it in a new thread if you want. I would totally understand. (but your responses intrigue me, so I'm trying to throw everything I got at you!)

:devil:
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
- The Prophet

CakeThiefPro

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:00 pm
Souls: 1,700.00
Posts: 489
Reputation: 13
#39
Sorry for the slow reply but I wanted to think about this a little. Before I ask questions/theorize I just want to say that I want you to leave your post here even if my response isn't satisfactory. If you want to re-post it in another thread with a better title I would be delighted, especially if it gets more attention and responses than it will on the fourth page of this thread.

With that said, I found a lot of your ideas interesting. I've spent a lot of time thinking about where/how the first flame originated ranging from the burning of a great arch tree to being unleashed from the Everlasting Dragons in an attack on the other races and even that they were the souls of Giant Lords that fell to the dragons. There are plenty of other theories but they all sounded a little ridiculous and I could never convince myself of them. I must admit that I always assumed Seath was born after the First Flame as a part of the disparity caused by the Flame although I can't find anything to confirm one way or the other. I assume that Dragons were probably born in eggs due to Dk2 and the nature of the crows so he definitely could have been born as a mutation and if he was born into that world he probably would do anything to find other creatures with emotion.

I'm not convinced that his rage alone would be enough to create this incredible surge of power. I've often toyed with the idea that the world being shrouded in "fog" was actually all the souls that would later bring the world to life. I used to justify it by fog gates being left over souls of the many victims claimed by the boss or dangerous enemies (for example the three undead with the crossbowman waiting in the undead burg near the start of the game). There's also the case of the orange fog that blocks the entrance to the four souls we need to collect. Again I believe this was part of Gwyns soul that would be returned to the Lord Vessel which served as a sign/magnet that their plan to find someone to link the flame had worked. If this was the case and Seath realised what the fog was that for the first time managed to affect someone then perhaps Seaths rage could affect it and spark it into fire. The first flame is also at the bottom of an arch-tree which could testify to Seath's isolation.

As for the Lord Vessel. I agree that it was used to divide Gwyns soul and it is quite likely that Seath created it although I suspect Gwyn would also have been able to do this. I mean the Witch also appeared to do a similar thing and how humanity was spread out isn't entirely known but again it's possible that the Pygmy was also able to mimic this effect. Also the Lord Vessel serves as a way to transport between bonfires and to unlock the Firelink Chamber. Now Seath's Channelers are the only other people that show the ability to teleport so it's definitely possible that Seath originally discovered this ability and developed the bonfire network.

The problem I have is that if Seath created or somehow caused the First Flame to be created, why would he need to take a piece of Gwyns soul and not just claim one for himself or even create one. One thing to note is that there are two Bequeated Lord Soul Shards in Dark Souls (Seath + FK) but Seaths is actually the same image as the ones of Nito and the Witch while the FKs is smaller. The reason Seath is a part of the Cycle in Dk2 could be because he actually claimed his own Lord Soul but for some reason decided to pretend that Gwyn gave it to him.

Seath may have been the one to link a woman to a bonfire but the Firekeeper souls themselves are formed from the humanity offered to them in the bonfire. The firekeeper soul of The Fair Lady says "To her, the countless eggs which appeared were cradles for each tiny humanity." I believe humanity cannot be destroyed and that the bonfire system was actually set up as a way to contain it just as they once attempted to contain it within Manus below Oolacile. This is why we can find it on corpses as even when people consume it they are only absorbing it within themselves and then death releases it. What's interesting is that TFL also says "the eggs have gone still… I fear it may be too late." The usual firekeeper keeps the humanity within themselves wriggling but due to her exposure to the Chaos Flame, TFL may have found a way to destroy or neutralise humanity. Either that or she's refering to the maggots that she was creating with humanity? I realise this has gone off track a little but I thought it was interesting if nothing else.

I also can't believe that I never saw the bonfire symbolism. It seems so obvious now but I never could figure out why there was a sword inside every bonfire :>

I suspect the Lords were all involved in the system. We know Gwyn was clearly a central figure but also there's a theory about Leeroy proving Nito and Gwyn actually worked together or were allies to some extent. The second bell of awakening location and the fact that one of the Witch's daughters was allowed to become a firekeeper and presumably spared by Gwyn and his knights after the battle against the Chaos Demons does suggest that the Izalith clan were also involved even if the Witch herself wasn't.

I suppose one problem I have is that nothing could cause Seath to go insane if he effectively created all life. What more could he discover that would do this to him as it presumably did to Logan? I mean if it wasn't for Logan we'd all say Seath hollowed as there are even Undead Dragons alongside Gwyns apparent hollowing suggests that no one is immune. Yet for some reason Seath is described as going insane in his quest for knowledge rather than hollowing. He didn't lose all of his souls and was immune so it would be hard to imagine how he could hollow unless he literally discovered everything there is to know about souls. Maybe he felt there was nothing left to learn and that's why he went insane?

There's definitely been a lot to think about and I'll reply with anything else I can think of but that was my initial reaction at least.
Avatar

Nahztek

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 am
Location: My own quiet corner of the Abyss.
Souls: 2,875.00
Posts: 574
Reputation: 37
#40
thanks for the reply.

I'd like to keep going with this on another thread and will do so when I get the chance.
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
- The Prophet
 4