Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
Reply  
Avatar

Mr_Rift

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 pm
Souls: 5,690.00
Posts: 993
Reputation: 37
#1
This is mostly me just hashing some stuff out, of course there's the usual "this is just my opinion, it's not held as 100% truth and is open to rebuttal" waiver as well, seeing as there's a few assumptions made here.

And again, sorry if this has all been covered elsewhere, I did a quick search for "Dark Hand" and couldn't find much. So, without further ass-covering...

Could the fall of New Londo be tied to the Occult Rebellion in some way?

If we go with the assumption that Velka was involved in the rebellion against the gods, then the prominence of her statues (or what people assume are statues of her) within New Londo could become more meaningful. Velka's gear is all Occult Damage based, but something that I just noticed today that also deals Occult damage is the Darkwraith's weapon, the Dark Hand.

Could it be possible that like Gwyn siding with Frampt, Velka sided with Kaathe?

New Londo was destroyed to contain the Darkwraiths, but who were they really a threat to? Sure, the individual humans whose humanity they were stealing, but if the Dark Hand is also doing Occult Damage then they would've been a threat to the Gods as well. The fact that the city was flooded, with all those individuals still inside, tells me that the Gods weren't that concerned about the loss of human life, more so about the Darkwraiths actually getting out.

Now, that point may seem old news but I'm more or less questioning why the Gods feared the Darkwraiths escaping. I don't think they were concerned with the loss of human life, they sacrificed an entire city of humans, I think the Gods were more terrified of the Darkwraiths for their Occult abilities.

Or perhaps the city wasn't so much sacrificed as it was purged? If the people of New Londo worshipped Velka then they could've been just as much a threat to the Gods as the Darkwraiths themselves. Of course, that's assuming that Velka was involved in the Occult Rebellion, assuming that the statues in New Londo are of her and assuming that New Londo was involved in the Rebellion as well.

There's a lot of assumptions in this, feel free to swoop in and do what you all do best.

Later
Avatar

Mr_Rift

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 pm
Souls: 5,690.00
Posts: 993
Reputation: 37
#2
Hmm, just found a lore video that brings up Velka possibly being linked to the Darkwraiths.

Apparently if you look closely at the Darkwraith armor, all that black material is actually feathers, possibly raven/crow feathers?

I didn't hear or see any mention about the Dark Hand doing Occult Damage however.
Avatar

Maz

Casual
Convict

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:08 pm
Souls: 408.00
Posts: 64
Reputation: 2
#3
If they indeed do occult damage, I could see why they would be a major threat to the gods. Having an army of Darkwraiths loose with occult abilities would be extremely dangerous.
Avatar

Mr_Rift

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 pm
Souls: 5,690.00
Posts: 993
Reputation: 37
#4
Check out the wiki, here - 130 Occult Damage

Shkar

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:00 pm
Souls: 2,560.00
Bank: 20,526.19
Posts: 4009
Reputation: 46
Wiki Edits: 7
#5
Unfortunately, the evidence for your theory is not very substantial. While many think the statues of are Velka, said statues are not (necessarily) a sign of her worship; they are also found at the Sunbros Shrine and the Firelink Shrine, two places that are not associated with Velka. While the part about the Dark Mask having feathers has always been a source of theories, and the Dark Hand's occult nature would indeed make it effective against the gods, that isn't evidence of the god's willingness to sacrifice a city for their own sake. The darkwraiths were already sucking out all the souls from the people of New Londo, their own people; it is no stretch to assume they would have went after, say, the Undead Burg after they finished draining the life from New Londo.
Avatar

Mr_Rift

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 pm
Souls: 5,690.00
Posts: 993
Reputation: 37
#6
Shkar wrote:While many think the statues of are Velka, said statues are not (necessarily) a sign of her worship; they are also found at the Sunbros Shrine and the Firelink Shrine, two places that are not associated with Velka.


Actually, the statue of the woman (whose face is visible) with the infant is also down in the Catacombs, behind where you get the Darkmoon Seance Ring, as well as the Church in the Undead Parish.

That point can be countered by the fact that there's equally little substantial proof that they're the same woman, otherwise I could also say that the female statues holding flames in the Dukes Archives are also the same individual.

One holds an newborn infant while her face is fully visible, the other is standing with a young child whose face looks like a skull, while her own face is covered in a mask. Maybe they're the same woman, just years apart - I could see a woman covering her face and going into mourning if her child were killed (the firstborn losing his deific status, perhaps? - that's a total stretch there, don't include that in this discussion) otherwise I don't think they're the same.

Shkar wrote:While the part about the Dark Mask having feathers has always been a source of theories, and the Dark Hand's occult nature would indeed make it effective against the gods, that isn't evidence of the god's willingness to sacrifice a city for their own sake.


It isn't really evidence that they didn't, either...

They contained the Darkwraiths, and yeah it stopped their spread and stopped them hunting humans, but the Occult damage aspect of it makes them too much of a threat to the Gods to be ignored. Everything else dealing with the Occult has been thrown into the Painted World, it's feared that much. It doesn't make sense for a battalion of knights, each with the innate ability to kill the gods, to be wiped out simply because they were a threat to humans.

I'm open to this being refuted as it is vapor thin as it is, but it is currently built upon several other widely accepted theories... I'll need more than somewhat stretched assumptions to put it aside.

Shkar

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:00 pm
Souls: 2,560.00
Bank: 20,526.19
Posts: 4009
Reputation: 46
Wiki Edits: 7
#7
If the statues are of different woman, then there is little reason to assume it is Velka. Considering the possibility that some of the statues are different opens up the possibility that one statue in particular is unique from all the other statues. As far as I can recall, the only evidence that the statues are of Velka comes from it's connection to the Painted World and Acidic Cook's old theories. Seperating the statue in question removes the first piece, and possibly the second piece; with Acidic's theories long gone, I can not recall what other evidence he had.

As for the reason for sealing the city, my point was that a true reason is never truly established, but after looking a little deeper in, I find less evidence behind your theory, sadly. The key to the seal says "The Sealers flooded New Londo to banish the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings. The agonizing decision was made with the realization that countless lives, and the robust culture of the city, would be lost. The victims now roam the ruins as ghosts," the crimson set claims that the sealers were once healers, and Ingward calls out to his countrymen when he dies, not the gods. Put it all together and it not only suggests that New Londo was sealed because "The Dark Wraiths were too dangerous to let wander," but that the decision to seal them away may not have even come from the gods. In fact, the gods may have already fled Anor Londo by the time the whole event occurred; not the most likely possibility, but we aren't given the best idea about when either event occurred, though we know that the sealing of New Londo was either a relatively short time before, or after, the resurgence of the undead curse.

In addition, many believe that Velka punishes sin. While it is equally possible that she is the goddess of sining, a punisher of sin does not seem likely to support those who would drain the soul of their own countrymen.
Avatar

Mr_Rift

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 pm
Souls: 5,690.00
Posts: 993
Reputation: 37
#8
It would seem that we're both discussing this from rather tenuous positions, one way or another there's little actual proof.

Let's move onto something else, shall we? :P