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Madara

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#1
This theory is my quest to prove an alternative look on what is going on in the world of dark souls. Please bear with me in this long theory and i hope you enjoy and agree. These are all my speculations based on the evidence at hand. If you have speculation it will be much appreciated. I made a theory about a year ago on the same topic but i've looked into it in more detail and i've changed and added alot more so its an entirely new theory.

What is the correlation between Chaos and the Abyss? Humanity is that correlation. In the Abyss we understand that, Oolacile discovered the Ancient Manus and the Abyss possibly in order to learn to art of Life Drain, the art of taking Humanity. The Abyss was created through Ancient Manus, Father of the Abyss and Primeval Man who seems to have been awakened by the people of Oolacile. His Humanity went wild and created the Abyss from it. Even after he is vanquished the Abyss remains, and it becomes the foundation of New Londo, which was felled by the power of the Abyss and the promise of Life Drain, turning the four kings of New Londo and their knights into Dark Wraiths.

Chaos was created by the Witch of Izalith in order to save them as the First Flame was dying. She and her daughters used a soul to create another artificial flame, which ended up going out of control and consuming her and her family. The Chaos Flame has been likened to radiation mutating the Izalith family based on what was closest at hand at the time, for example, the Bed of Chaos was created because the witch of Izalith was nearest an arch tree, an Arch tree that can be visibly seen in Blighttown, who's roots seep down into the demon ruins, Quelaag and the Fair Lady where near spiders, Ceaseless was near lava, etc etc. The Chaos flame created through that soul went wild and mutated everyone within reach. Note how Quelaana remained reasonably unscathed and created pyromancy. My speculation is that she began to fight the Bed of Chaos with Fire Sorcery but after a drawn out battle chaos finally defeated her and the chaos mutated fire sorcery itself into her creating Pyromancy and turning her into a phantom who can only be seen by talented potential Pyromancers.

The Humanity and the sorceries related to it in the Abyss and Oolacile show that Humanity is harmful to humans when under the will over another. For example, here is a description of the "Pursuers" Sorcery from Oolacile:

"Abyss sorcery discovered by an Oolacile sorcerer on the brink of madness. Fire giant Dark Orbs
In contrast to standard soul sorceries, Abyss sorceries are weighty and inflict physical damage. Perhaps human souls, because of their humanity, produce sorceries with a more tangible presence".


Humanity on its own without a sentient being controlling it, acts to help you in your quest. Chaos is the same except it uses fire as a medium, its radiation mutating everything around it. What reinforces the power of chaos? Humanity. Here is the description of the Chaos Flame Ember:

"Ember required for weapon ascension. Chaos Flame Ember is an art of the lost city of Izalith. Handled only by blacksmiths knowledgeable in ancient methods.
Ascends +5 fire weapon to chaos weapon. (chaos weapon can be reinforced to +5)
Chaos weapons are demon weapons augmented by humanity which inflict fire damage".


Their was a soul used to produce Chaos and i think it was the soul of a direct follower of the furtive pygmy.

Now, to the Dark Ember. The Dark Ember was created by an Unknown Man/Blacksmith, and it insighted a rebellion against the Gods. These rebels even went so far as to steal Gravelord Nito's power, as indicated by the Effigy Shield. In the Item description it states:

"Frightful occult shield. Defends against divine weapons and lightning.
In an ill-fated plot to destroy the very gods, the followers of the occult once attempted to steal the power of Gravelord Nito, the first of the dead."


Whoever insighted this rebellion needed to steal Nito's power, one of the four lords who fought the Everlasting Dragons. He has the power over death in Dark Souls. The only person i can think of that can stand a chance of stealing power from the Gravelord himself is a human full of Humanity. Its a well known game mechanic, stake Humanity, your stats go up. Pretty interesting mechanic. And if we take Humanity to be the Dark Soul, it would be a fight between the Dark soul and a Lord soul. The Dark Ember created occult weapons that can kill the gods, but it has to be stacked on Divine Weapons originally tailored to kill the Undead Humans by the Way of White, followers of allfather loyd and father of gwyn. The rebels turned a weapon against Humanity and the undead back at the gods. Who would have to motive and the power to create an ember like that and steal Nito's power only another direct follower of the Furtive Pygmy

Manus(The Abyss), The Unknown Follower(The Chaos Flame), The Dark Ember Blackmith/Man who faced Nito(The Rebellion), The Chosen Undead(The Age of Dark), The Pygmy's own knights in his fight against the Age of fire. I think the Pygmy kept growing in power after he or she gained possession of the dark soul. The Dark Soul is the only power that seems to be growing stronger as time passes as its many mediums spread influence across Lordran. The Lords souls kept getting divided as their power started to fade as the Age of Fire starts to die. Hawkeye Gough goes onto endorse this fact in his dialogue:

"If thine wish is to succeed poor Artorias, and challenge the spread of the Dark,
Then thou must face Manus, Father of the Abyss.
The Dark emanates from Manus himself.
Even if this land shall expire, thou may be able to prevent further corrosion.
…But even so, one day the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.
And even a legend such as thineself can do nothing to stop that".


The Gods continually burned the Humanity of the humans to keep the fire going and keep the Lords and Gods in power.

I think the Pygmy wanted a war against the gods. He/She wanted for his/her children to live free of the oppression of the Gods. So he/she divided the majority of the power he/she had left between four of his followers and they were set with the task of bringing forth an Age of Darkness in which man could rise. You the player die, and lose the humanity you were granted. As to whether or not you lose your memory, no one knows, as you are the player and you do not talk. Although, since you face some of the supposed followers of the Pygmy, might suggest a loss of memory. One hint that you were one of the Pygmy's followers comes from the description of the Broken Pendant, it states:

"Half of a broken stone pendant. The vine appears to originate from Oolacile.
A powerful magic can be sensed from this ancient stone. Yet men of this time can neither manipulate nor sense its power, which has a distinct air consisting of both reverence and nostalgia".

It states men of "this time" can niether sense of manipulate its power. You are able to use it to go back in time to when Manus had turned Oolacile into his dominion. It becomes clear that you, the Chosen Undead are not of this time. You might say that Chester is also dragged back into past but its never confirmed he's dragged back into the past or if so, at what point from in the future, just grabbed by a giant arm to Oolacile. He also carries items from Carim a place known for liars such as Lautrec. He may just be lying after coming across someone it has already happened to because after killing him he doesn't drop the other part of the broken pendant. There are a few possibilities.

The Primordial Serpents are immortals watching as things unfold. Kingseeker Frampt and Darkstalker Kaathe are two sides of the same coin. Kingseeker frampt is afraid of what the humans will do in power so he chooses to keep the Flame lit and the Age of Fire alive. Frampt never talks about the good deeds of the Gods, only about keeping a sort of balance in which the lords and gods remain ontop. His philosophy so far as i can tell is the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. Darkstalker Kaathe wants humans to take Lordran for themselves and bring about the Age of Darkness and the Age of Man. There are two possibilities. The first, he wants complete the abyss and the chaos to conquer the world and enjoy as the world is reduced to nothing. We have seen what happened in Oolacile when humans chose the dark of the Abyss. The Second, He recognizes that he is an immortal being and the world should be left in the hands of the mortals rather than a being in which the world has no consequence upon. From the final scenes of the Age of Dark ending you see many Primordial Serpents, showing that Kaathe and Frampt aren't the only Primordial serpants, suggesting the possibility that they were probably to remain neutral in worldly matters, all except Kaathe and Frampt so to speak.

The Chaos flame fell Izalith first and the gods tried to seal them away with a great flood via the sewerage system known as "The Depths". The many scaffoldings of Blighttown are evidence of a need to be far above ground level along with the wheels and carriage systems, more than likely used to bring the water down to Blighttown from the Darkroot Forest located above and finally the mud that was left behind from the flooded area still remains, more than likely poisoned as a result of Eingyi. Soon after this i assume Gwyn went and became fuel for the flame in an effort to keep the Age of Fire alive. Anor Londo fell when the four kings became corrupted by the abyss after coming in contact with Darkstalker Frampt and in order to gain the power of life drain. Three sealers took it upon themselves to divert the water that sealed the demons and chaos in order to seal away an even greater threat to the Age of Fire.

I have more but i will edit this thread later with more speculation and references because this theory has taken long enough as it stands.
Last edited by Madara on Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Serious_Much

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#2
I've edited your text to make it more legible. Please use a lighter colour (if you really have to use colour that is) in the future :)
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Madara

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#3
Serious_Much wrote:I've edited your text to make it more legible. Please use a lighter colour (if you really have to use colour that is) in the future :)
Thanks dude, i'll take note in future!

CakeThiefPro

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#4
It's certainly an interesting theory. I'll add my own idea that one of the followers is Vamos. The Dark Embers description says that no living blacksmith is aware of its existence. At first I thought this might mean the blacksmith deity but why word it like that unless they meant Vamos who isn't technically living. He also has knowledge of the chaos ember suggesting he understands the connection between humanity and flame which is arguably the most complicated weapon that can be forged.Finally he has the royal helm that makes reference to an ancient royal line yet absolutely no trace of them is found within the game. This could be because the pygmy's home during his human life was wiped out either by the Gods or by his own abyssal powers. This could also explain his peculiar body as it was warped by the flame and humanity colliding. He may have sought refuge in the catacombs because he knew the gods were not interested in it or because he helped Nito breed skeletons with the power of humanity in exchange for isolation and the chance to focus on his work.

Also I can't believe I didn't realize Blightown was originally flooded until just now :>

Shkar

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#5
I have some alternative theories (which I will briefly support), as well as a few nitpicky details.

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It seems more probable that The Chaos Flame mutated more off principle than location; most of what is mutated is seemingly exact opposites of what it was before. The witch of Izalith, who's prime characteristic was her mastery of flame sorcery, became a being of wood. The archtrees in Ash Lake spread their roots towards lava, but the one in Izalith spreads it's roots towards lava. Combined with the issues of building your city over a massive lava ocean, and it seems more probable that it was once lava. Ceaseless once had sores that were caused by lava, and he now has wounds that ooze lava. Two of the daughters, who's human halves are by no means ugly, were twisted into giant spiders.

The first flame created disparity; it's not unreasonable to assume that adding a second flame would cause things to become strange due to disparity.

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Uncontrolled Humanity doesn't seek to help you; it seeks out life, and seems to be actively hostile, or at the very least, unhealthy.The Abyss seems to eat away at matter, the wild humanity in the abyss is downright deadly, and orbs of humanity can approach the power of a soul spear sharpened with crystals or a bolt of lightning. The one difference we know of between humans and gods is humanity, and humans lack the near-immortality of the gods.

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You say The Witch created chaos, and then you say that a follower of the dark 's soul was used to create chaos. What seems more probable is that it was the lord soul that became the roaring chaos flame. If you look at the powerful souls, they start to turn yellowish-gold. They also flicker and flow. It is these properties that makes me believe that the first flame is actually a giant soul. The lord souls are incredibly powerful; they must be large souls, contained by the control of it's wielders. Set loose, it's highly possible it could seem as though it were a giant flame. I creating yet more disparity, it is easy to see how it could be seen as a "chaos flame."

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I realize it is generally accepted, but it doesn't seem right to me that the Pygmy wanted war with the gods. They fought the dragons together (supposedly). And, despite what people claim, there is little evidence of any atrocities committed by the gods against the humans that humanity wouldn't have likely caused itself anyway. The lands outside of Lordran are, for the most part, supposedly ruled by humans. The one atrocity most people point at by the gods is Anastacia, the firelink firekeeper, being crippled and muted, supposedly to prevent blasphemy. However, not only is our source, thecrestfallen warrior, not very impartial due to his worldviews, but that kind of thing isn't necessarily done by order of the gods. Many real-world religions had radical actions done in the name of their religion, but that was fairly often done for devotion than fear of their god's wrath. For all we know, people are "corrected" (in a horrible way, supposedly) for their blasphemy, the same way many Christians get upset with those who take their lord''s name in vain.

Heck, the Earl of Carim supposedly ordered the construction of the bite rings and other horribly inhumane devices. Using someone's soul as a scapegoat to dodge a curse and killing people off to prevent said curses seems far worse than removing someone's tongue. And he is, as far as we know, human!

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And now, for a few nit-picky details:

The Depths is more likely to be a storm drain than a sewer; there are no toilets in game, after all.

The dark soul probably doesn't grow in strength; it's probably just getting more concentrated as the population shrinks.

The text from the broken pendant is likely meant to keep things ambiguous. For all we know, it could support the theory that the player is the Firstborn.

Madara

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#6
@Shkar, i've been doing alot more research on the subject and i've come with a whole bunch of new theories but i've essentially disproved what i was trying to prove, along with the points you've made. I really like your take on the effects of the chaos flame though. My perspective on Izalith has been changed.