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#1
This came as an extension of the estus being humanity thread. Now, it's commonly accepted that we, the undead, are warriors of the dark. But what if, instead, we are on the side of light. Now, while I thought about this even more, I have expanded it into a very over arching theory, that actually challenges a lot of what we believe about Dark Souls' Lore.

The undead are warriors of the light, fighting against the fake gods, such as Gwyn and the others. The occult, is the power of the real gods, and the divine is actually the true occult. We can easily know this by the fact that Velka, a known Goddess, has the power of the "occult."

Velka's power, works best against sinners, and is stronger when fighting the "divine." These so called "divine beings" like Gwyn and his family, are sinning by impersonating the True Gods. As reward for vanquishing them, Velka lets the Chosen Undead make the decision what to do with the world.

Now, how did this idea come out of the humanity estus thread. Well, the majority of healing available in the games, does not come from Humanity but instead comes from the power of the gods and belief. Well miracles, can be used by anyone with enough faith in anything, three out of the four healing equipment pieces, (The Sanctus, Server, Butcher Knife, and Smough's Hammer), gain their power from the "occult."

Why would this make the Chosen Undead, a warrior of the light? We actually get healed by destroying the Darkness, and by consuming Humanity. We get more help, from both the bonfires, and from our Estus, by using up the humanity in the world, and helping the first flame grow.

Nito, himself, is something really special as well. Well he is a Lord, the power of the divine does more damage to him instead. He's also very passive, and seems to prefer not to fight if at all possible. He was also the first of the undead, and has power over death. Death, is what Gwyn was afraid of the most, was he not?

When the first flame came into being, Four Lord Souls came, The Izalith Soul, Gwyn's Soul, Nito's Soul, and the Soul of the Furtive Pygmy. Two of the souls are souls of the divine, (Izalith soul and Gwyn's) while the other two are souls of Death and Occult. (Nito and Furtive Pygmy.)

What came from the Flame was not just one "dark soul" but two. One was given to Nito, and one was given to the Furtive Pygmy. Nito as a boss, appears to act only in self-defense, and in fact, may be on your side to begin with. He has the power of the "occult" as seen by taking extra damage from Divine. And evidenced by the fact, that Baby Skeletons give lots of humanity, but not Grown Skeletons, instead of this idea that he is farming humanity, what if in fact, he is expending it to make new servants?

There is quite a bit more that can be added to this, but I feel I have more then enough evidence for this post, to make a point. What I would like to see now, is what all of your thoughts on this idea is. What side is the Chosen Undead really on? Is humanity a bad thing? And many other questions can be asked and arise from this, I just don't wish to be too confusing on the first post.
#2
Considering the length of this post, I think I will use this one, to put it in much simpler terms instead.

Idea One: Occult is the real power of the Gods, and Divine is the power of fake Gods.

Support:

1. Velka, a true goddess uses the power of the Occult.

2. Well, most of the healing items available in Dark Souls comes from Faith, which could either be divine or occult based, three out of the four healing equipment use the Occult.


Idea Two: We shouldn't be fighting for the Abyss, instead we should be fighting for the First Flame.

Support.

1. The bonfires, remnants of the first flame, heal you. This suggests that the first flame is good for you.

2. When you use Firekeepers souls to power up Estus, you are destroying the humanity inside of them. Along with that, absorbing humanity isn't necessarily what heals you, as evidencd by the fact that killing an invader doesn't heal you. Therefore, what if it is the act of destroying humanity that heals you?


Idea Three: The Furtive Pygmy isn't the only one with a "Dark Soul" but Nito has something like as well.

Support 1. Nito takes damage from the Divine.

Support 2. Nito is the lord of death, which is strongly related to the undead.

In addition a new theory is brought forth about Nito.

The "baby skeletons" in the Tomb of Giants drop humanity, but the "adult skeletons" do not. Considering how the baby skellies are "birthed," it's not too far a stretch to say that the baby skellies "grow" into the Adult Skellies, with their size being a symbol of their power. Considering how the Skellies act as mindless servants to the Necromancers, it can be assumed that their self control has been taken away. In this case, is it possible that the skellies have their "humanity" removed, and therefore lose all consciousness? After talking with a few people already, it seems to be that
this idea can actually be expanded on even more, and may actually be deserving of it's own thread if it starts enough discussion.
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#3
Apologies in advance, I'm gonna be a party pooper of Buzz Killington levels here :-S:

The Chosen Undead is, at best, completely neutral to the overall conflict, fighting for neither light nor dark. They're just trying to escape, with either Kaathe or Frampt making the decision for you on which side you align with.

As the description for Vow of Silence indicates, Velka is not actually a god. She is simply a rogue deity with power that rivals the gods. Also, by observing the mechanics of how sin works, Velka would actually be in alignment with Gwyndolin, who is irrefutably a god, since it's his Blades of the Darkmoon who actually enforce the punishments of sin.

If Gwyn and the other Lord Soul possessors are impersonating the "true gods," then who are the "true gods?"

Of all the healing equipment in the game, only the Server draws it's power from an occult source. The Butcher's Knife and Smough's Hammer have that ability due to the remnant's of their original owners' gluttony for human flesh.

The Chosen Undead doesn't "use up" Humanity, they absorb it.

Estus is not a power of the light. The description of the Estus Flask clearly links them to be made from and draw power from Fire Keeper souls, which in turn have their description state that their souls are comprised of an infinite amount of Humanity. It even states that the bonfires themselves and the Firekeepers are one in the same, with the Firekeeper herself being the tank/storage for any Humanity offered. Bonfires are powered by Humanity, grow stronger with more Humanity, and supply energy for Flasks made of Humanity. Estus and the bonfires are a byproduct of Humanity, not the power of the gods.

Nito's soul is made of the same type of light soul as the Witch of Izalith, the shards possessed by Seath and the Four Kings, and Gwyn's. Fragments of the Dark Soul are clearly black as evidenced by Manus's soul, the consumable Humanity, and Artorias's corrupted soul.

Death was not what Gwyn was afraid of. He was afraid of darkness coming to power. If he was afraid of death, he wouldn't have sacrificed himself to the First Flame.

Divine more often than not has implications with the Way of White rather than Gwyn who, while not confirmed, seem to draw their power from Allfather Lloyd. Innately divine weapons such as the Crescent Axe and Grant are all tied to the WoW, the Divine Ember states that it is property of the church, and theLarge Divine Ember states it was used for secret church rites. Sources that draw their power from Gwyn typically have lightning powers instead such as the Sunlight Spear miracle. Lloyd is a known enemy of the undead with his power and organization seemingly only having the purpose of destroying them, so Nito is weak to Divine because that's the whole purpose of the power.

And lastly, I know this one is petty semantics, but the Lord Souls were not "given." They were "found."
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#4
Reaperfan wrote:Apologies in advance, I'm gonna be a party pooper of Buzz Killington levels here :-S:

The Chosen Undead is, at best, completely neutral to the overall conflict, fighting for neither light nor dark. They're just trying to escape, with either Kaathe or Frampt making the decision for you on which side you align with. Already described and explained away in part of the original post.

As the description for Vow of Silence indicates, Velka is not actually a god. She is simply a rogue deity with power that rivals the gods. Also, by observing the mechanics of how sin works, Velka would actually be in alignment with Gwyndolin, who is irrefutably a god, since it's his Blades of the Darkmoon who actually enforce the punishments of sin. A deity is in fact a god, and the book of indictments is in Velka's, corrrect?

If Gwyn and the other Lord Soul possessors are impersonating the "true gods," then who are the "true gods?"

Of all the healing equipment in the game, only the Server draws it's power from an occult source. The Butcher's Knife and Smough's Hammer have that ability due to the remnant's of their original owners' gluttony for human flesh. Gluttony of human flesh, is itself of occult origin. It has been largely concluded that the eating of undead is an unholy thing.
A
The Chosen Undead doesn't "use up" Humanity, they absorb it. And yet when they absorb it direclyt from an invader, or killing enough normal enemies, there is no healling.

Estus is not a power of the light. The description of the Estus Flask clearly links them to be made from and draw power from Fire Keeper souls, which in turn have their description state that their souls are comprised of an infinite amount of Humanity. It even states that the bonfires themselves and the Firekeepers are one in the same, with the Firekeeper herself being the tank/storage for any Humanity offered. Bonfires are powered by Humanity, grow stronger with more Humanity, and supply energy for Flasks made of Humanity. Estus and the bonfires are a byproduct of Humanity, not the power of the gods. Estus is not stated to contain humanity, or even be a byproduct of Humanity, just that it happens to have some sort of connection to it.

Nito's soul is made of the same type of light soul as the Witch of Izalith, the shards possessed by Seath and the Four Kings, and Gwyn's. Fragments of the Dark Soul are clearly black as evidenced by Manus's soul, the consumable Humanity, and Artorias's corrupted soul. This one actually makes more sense, but to be fair, we have no clue what the Dark Soul actually looked like originally, (although we assume it was dark due to the name), nor can we assume that a soul has to have dark coloration, to be considered a "dark soul"

Death was not what Gwyn was afraid of. He was afraid of darkness coming to power. If he was afraid of death, he wouldn't have sacrificed himself to the First Flame.He didn't die by sacrificing himself, he was afraid of darkness taking over, for the deadly effects that it would cause.

Divine more often than not has implications with the Way of White rather than Gwyn who, while not confirmed, seem to draw their power from Allfather Lloyd. Innately divine weapons such as the Crescent Axe and Grant are all tied to the WoW, the Divine Ember states that it is property of the church, and theLarge Divine Ember states it was used for secret church rites. Sources that draw their power from Gwyn typically have lightning powers instead such as the Sunlight Spear miracle. Lloyd is a known enemy of the undead with his power and organization seemingly only having the purpose of destroying them, so Nito is weak to Divine because that's the whole purpose of the power. But the Way of White does follow Gwyn however as well, nor is there any reason to assume that Gwyn could only use lightning based magic

And lastly, I know this one is petty semantics, but the Lord Souls were not "given." They were "found."
Meh, semantics, don't matter.
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#5
Velka is described as a deity, which does mean god or... goddess:

Miracle of the black-haired witch Velka. Temporary auto counter vs. heavy damage.
For each sin there is a punishment, and it is the task of Goddess Velka to defin the sin, and mete out the punishment.


As seen in the description for Karmic Justice above and Vow of Silence below:

Secret rite of the black-haired witch Velka. Prevents casting of magic within effect area.
Velka, the Goddess of Sin, is a rogue deity, but she is versed in arts both new and old, and is considered to have a great range of influence even as gods are concerned.


I never thought that Velka was aligned with or made use of the occult. However, I found it of note that Velka's rapier scaled with intelligence and Velka's talisman allowed one to cast miracles using intelligence as a scaling stat. Even the Black Cleric set is a mage-type outfit (light weight, relatively high magic defense, black). The Vow of Silence discription is very interesting to me. It seems to suggest she is independent of other gods and even has power over them. The use of the word rogue is a bit puzzling, however, since she oversees sin and thus would more likely be seen as on the side of good, lawfulness and order. In other words; basically the antithesis of "rogue".

But, in any case there is a strong suggestion that she is very much apart from the other gods and fundamentally different (she is a deity without without having found or having been given a lord soul) and that the relationship between her and other gods is a bit adversarial. The gods have locked everything they perceive as a threat in the Painted World. That includes (almost) everything related to Velka, the occult ember and even some pyromancy. Magic and faith have always been adversarial opposites in Souls games. Given that all the Velka items are intelligence based and that she is also described as a "witch"; it would seem Velka falls on the magic side of the equation, thus opposite faith, The Way of the White, Gwyn, et all.

If there is an occult aspect to Velka's powers, that would only support that theory further. Perhaps occult is merely intelligence expressed as faith... much like the Velka talisman uses intelligence to cast miracles? The pyromancy could be similarly explained because we know pyromancy started as sorcery. Although, the only other supporting evidence I can think of would be the "versed in arts both new and old" line.
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#6
First short post on this thread, but it's a small idea.

What if the reason why Velka's Talisman scales off of intelligence, is because to figure out the "Gods' lies, and know who the true Deity is, takes some intelligence to do so?

(Um, if that's worded oddly, I'm sorry.)

And about Velka and Occult being together, I always thought that anything that went against the "Gods" counter as the occult, and because Velka's followers are locked in the Painted World, I assumed that belief in Velka, counted as faith in the occult.
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#7
The fact that "intelligence" and "faith" are presented as opposites has not escaped me. That could be seen as a social commentary, however a discussion of that would certainly take us well beyond Dark Souls lore. :D

However, with respect to the lore this is very possible. I find myself doing the dark lord ending even though I never do anything related to the darkwraiths, except switch to the dark hand and soul-suck forest AFK farmers. I detest feeling like a rube or a pawn, so I'll not play Gwyndolin's little game. BTW; I see Gwyndolin as a mere figurehead for the Darkmoon covenant and perhaps even an impostor, who has seized his position heading the Darkmoons illegitimately. In any case I don not interpret the lore to even hint at Gwyndolin being the original or true leader of the Darkmoons in any way. And I meant to mention that in my original post.
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#8
On Velka, note that occult weapons scale with Faith, not Intelligence-except for Velka's Rapier, which is an occult weapon by default. Also note that Velka's in-game follower, Oswald the Pardoner, refers to the Gods as 'magnanimous' and obviously sees them as a god thing.
The Lords and the Gods are different. Nito and the Witch of Izalith are not Gods; the Gods are the family of Gwyn and Allfather Lloyd. Gwyn is both a god and a Lord, whereas Nito and the WoI are only Lords. Lords, as presented in-game, seem to hold more power than most gods, Gwyn being a definite exception (though he was a Lord as well) and Lloyd a possible other.
Also, the lore of Demon's Souls got very heavy into the conflict between magic/sorcery and miracles-ie, Intelligence and Faith. I think this was largely just assumed for Dark besides a few off-hand comments to let players know it was still there, and focus was instead put on the conflict between Fire (Gods) and Dark (Humans).

As for undead being the 'race of light'-I think Light isn't even actually a factor or force in the story beyond Gwyn's domain as a god being the sun. I think the Gods have referred to themselves as the race of 'Light' as a way of painting themselves in a more positive light (pun not intended) as a means of 'shepherding the humans', as Kaathe put it, while they're actually the race of Fire. Nito and his skeletons are the 'race' of Death, the Witch's family is the race of Chaos, the dragons are Twilight (shadow, grey, colorless, stone; they and the Age of Ancients definitely invoke the colorless fog, demons and Old One of Demon's Souls) and Humans are the race of Dark. Light isn't actually at work here at all-there is no race of it, because it''s not one of the elemental forces. Light is just Gwyn and a few other deity's specific power, not any race's as a whole.

Also-you didn't link to my 'Estus as a Humanity Drink' thread~
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#9
Acarnatia wrote:On Velka, note that occult weapons scale with Faith, not Intelligence-except for Velka's Rapier, which is an occult weapon by default. Also note that Velka's in-game follower, Oswald the Pardoner, refers to the Gods as 'magnanimous' and obviously sees them as a god thing.
The Lords and the Gods are different. Nito and the Witch of Izalith are not Gods; the Gods are the family of Gwyn and Allfather Lloyd. Gwyn is both a god and a Lord, whereas Nito and the WoI are only Lords. Lords, as presented in-game, seem to hold more power than most gods, Gwyn being a definite exception (though he was a Lord as well) and Lloyd a possible other.
Also, the lore of Demon's Souls got very heavy into the conflict between magic/sorcery and miracles-ie, Intelligence and Faith. I think this was largely just assumed for Dark besides a few off-hand comments to let players know it was still there, and focus was instead put on the conflict between Fire (Gods) and Dark (Humans).

As for undead being the 'race of light'-I think Light isn't even actually a factor or force in the story beyond Gwyn's domain as a god being the sun. I think the Gods have referred to themselves as the race of 'Light' as a way of painting themselves in a more positive light (pun not intended) as a means of 'shepherding the humans', as Kaathe put it, while they're actually the race of Fire. Nito and his skeletons are the 'race' of Death, the Witch's family is the race of Chaos, the dragons are Twilight (shadow, grey, colorless, stone; they and the Age of Ancients definitely invoke the colorless fog, demons and Old One of Demon's Souls) and Humans are the race of Dark. Light isn't actually at work here at all-there is no race of it, because it''s not one of the elemental forces. Light is just Gwyn and a few other deity's specific power, not any race's as a whole.

Also-you didn't link to my 'Estus as a Humanity Drink' thread~


Well, there are many different religions. Just because I don't believe in Religion A doesn't mean I believe in Religion B, I could still always believe in Religion C. (And so on and so forth) The occult, is a broad term for all beliefs that aren't of the "divine."

From what I can remember off the top of my head, all of Velka's equipment has Int scaling. So maybe Lords=Religion A, (Normal) Occult =Religion B, and Velka = Religion C. And that Velka is the only religion that someone with intelligence would actually believe in.

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#10
Waaaaiiiit you say that we should fight for the first flame, but then also say that the occult is the "right path?" These two things contradict each other.

I'm not sure how I feel about Life Souls and Death/Occult souls. For one, you shouldn't give Velka so much power as she is a goddess and the game makes a slight distinction between gods and lords, similar to in Greek mythology how there were gods and titans. Except, these gods can't kill the "titans." All of the gods are pretty stagnant really, the lords are the only ones who get any real work done. this is going off of the fact that the player is part of/is the furtive pygmy.
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lol
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