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Petehog

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#1
Hi! Got a question. This question is for Dark Souls 2 PVP and not Dark Souls 3 PVP.
I’m having difficulty with this one person in PVP. He has a shield along with an Estoc.
His shield will change depending on the weapon I’m using.

If I’m using something magical, he uses Havel. But I think it’s a magic-infused Havel shield. Because my damage does squat.

If I’m using a weapon with lightning, he uses Throne watcher or a lightning infused Old Knight shield.
If I’m using an unbuffed weapon, he’s using a Defender shield and my damage is 0.
If I’m using a dark weapon, he’s using Havel. It’s dark-infused.
If I’m using a fire weapon, he’s using a Grym shield and my damage does 0 damage.
Sometimes he’ll act cute and just use a Defender shield but he’ll cast Magic shield on it so my damage is 0, 0, 0 and 0.

Ok, so here’s my question. How do you beat an awesome Estoc fighter who uses a shield to counter your attacks. Let me go over some scenarios.

== >I try to guardbreak him. Nope, he puts his shield down and he hits me with a 2 hit Estoc combo.
== > I use a katana Nope. He dodges it all. Or blocks it. Pokes me with the Estoc. More often, it’s a whiff.
== > Sunsword? Blocks 100% with his Defender shield. Then counter attacks with the 1 handed R2.
== > Spells? He rolls under the spell and pokes me.
== >Spears? He rolls over the spear attack and pokes me. Or he just blocks the spear and I do very little damage. Or I hear the clang of his Throne Watcher shield.
==> Longsword attack? I roll attack. he rolls back. He does a backstep each time I try to attack. Then he blocks. Then does the 1 handed Estoc R2.
== > Butcher’s knife? He blocks with Havel. Waits. Attacks with the 1 handed R2.
== >Shotel to get through his shield? It’s too slow. He dodges. Then pokes me with the Estoc.
== >Dark drift to get through his shield? He’s awesome against katanas. Dodges. Rolls. Pokes me with the Estoc.
== >I use an ice rapier to “trade hits” with him. He blocks. I do 0 damage. Maybe single digits damage. Nothing.
== >A dagger? Nope. Blocked.
== >I get cute. I make a split infusion. He casts Great Magic Barrier on himself.
== >Ultra great sword? Great sword? Great axe? Great hammer? Block. Block. Block. Then that signature Estoc sound.
== >So I use an Estoc. Nope. He’s better than me with the Estoc.

How do hell do you beat this guy?

I should also mention that he probably has a STONE RING because he chains his combos. I'll get poked for a 5-6 hit combo sometimes.

I’m sure a parry would work. But I've learned to accept that I can't parry.

The only way I've managed to pull off some wins is when I put invisible rings on so he doesn't know what weapon I'm using but I feel dirty doing that lol.

How do you stop this guy?
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XuitusTheGreat

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#2
Switch between different types of damage to chip him to death? You can only carry 3 shields o.o he would have to menu swap at some point

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Petehog

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#3
XuitusTheGreat wrote:Switch between different types of damage to chip him to death? You can only carry 3 shields o.o he would have to menu swap at some point


I tried that but at that point, he just uses Havel which does very little damage. He then casts Strong Magic Shield on it to be cute.

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#4
Try using a black separation crystal it tends to get rid of these guys without trouble, alternatively you can find a ledge to jump off, they are both very solid tactics.

EDIT: since it's ds2 you can try poison, if you manage to do it you should apply very high pressure to prevent him from eating moss (rapier or katana recommended)
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skarekrow13

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#5
Petehog wrote:
XuitusTheGreat wrote:Switch between different types of damage to chip him to death? You can only carry 3 shields o.o he would have to menu swap at some point


I tried that but at that point, he just uses Havel which does very little damage. He then casts Strong Magic Shield on it to be cute.


Man, he's doing it wrong. He could drop the weight, switch to Rebel's Greatshield and use Strong Magic Shield and get basically the same results and wouldn't even need a shield swap.

As for tips, it sounds like he's accounted for most of the usual. Try doing something completely wacky. If he's good against katanas, how is he against the Shotel? That also has shield pierce.

You say PvP but what's the setting? Is he invading? Arena? If he's invading you could create a corpse pile and set up a Dead Again trap. AoE effect could hit behind (where shields won't always protect ya) and I've used it to one shot high level Havel wearin' characters.

Not to be a jerk, but a lot of the stuff you described sounds like "this guy is actually pretty darn good at the game." Under that circumstance, it's hard to give a good tip because your list of counters suggests he's got a lot of stuff covered.

There's always a way, but sometimes the path is exceedingly problematic.

One last tip, he's using a weapon that relies on thrust attacks so you can out environment him if you're good at spacing and maneuvering.

A couple examples I've used from DS1 and DS2.

In DS1 I used the Great Scythe a ton in PvP. The hit box on the weapon allowed it to strike through and around objects. Sooooo...I would act like a squirrel around trees and try to always keep the tree between me and my opponent. Sometimes a weapon that swings horizontally can still swipe you, but most weapons relying on thrust attacks will ricochet off the tree harmlessly. This was absurdly effective against some players. Spear users, mages and more. If they can't out maneuver you around that tree, they can't hit you. If they can't hit you, they can't win. The Great Scythe on the other hand wraps around the tree and hit just fine thank you very much.

In DS2, I would do the same thing with the Drangleic sword. The wide arc horizontally allowed me to hit around things. This most notably worked around bonfires. That little sword sticking out of the ground can be very effective in stopping a thrust attack believe it or not.

Another thing to note is that many weapons have a fairly large animation in which the weapon ricochets off the obstacle.

During this animation, blocking is not "a thing." If you use a weapon that causes decent stagger you can sidestep the obstacle and open up on them.
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qeter

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#6
out-range with a long spear. he will mess up eventually.

Petehog

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#7
@skarekrow13
Come to think of it, he never does use a Rebel's shield. He usually uses Havel's/Defender all the time. This is all in the arena. I can’t find a proper counter against the Estoc other than a Estoc or a spear. But the problem is that he’s exponentially better than me with the Estoc and spears don’t work on him because he’s blocking or he’s dodging in a puff of smoke. He must have an agility of 120 or he’s just damn good at dodging because he does a pretty good of evading the Dragon Slayer Spear. Sometimes I get him and it's sweet! But it's rare. I’ll try using the Scythes but I do remember that Scythes were much better in Dark Souls 1 as opposed to Dark Souls 2. And yeah, my post is whiny. I think it’s because I can't figure him out.
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TSMP

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#8
Is this Dark Souls 2? You could try overpowering him with heavy armor, a giant weapon, and lots of poise. Or just time guardbreaks and crit him to death.

Petehog

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#9
Ok I think I have the answer to my own question.

Sometimes the way to figure out how to beat an opponent is to copy their build. So I copied his build.

Watch on youtube.com


The only real difference is that I'm wearing a Jester's outfit.

Here's my report:

1. Spears seem to be effective. (I changed this as I began to play more with the build). Spears were causing me problems but only when the user used unlocked spear attacks.
2. Poison doesn’t work. When you put Strong Magic shield on a Havel’s shield, you have complete immunity.
3. Heavy weapon and heavy poise works (it ends up being a trade in hits) but it's hard to say because I memorized the timing of all heavy weapons so I know how to dodge them and go behind for backstabs.
4 Guard-breaks aren't as reliable. I find more often than not, it's very easy to spot a guard-break and then I hit them with a 2 to 5 hit combo with the Estoc.

There seems to be two consistent ways which seem to work against an Estoc turtle:

1. Parrying (I lost to people who could parry the R2 of the Estoc.)

2. The estoc (If my opponent was better at the Estoc I would lose)

What makes this build effective in my opinion is that it forces your opponent to use a 2nd tier weapon. Aside from the Estoc (which is a grade A weapon) the other weapons which could counter this style are:

b) Darkdrift
c) Shotel
d) Scythe
e) Some sickle thing

This basically forces your opponent to throw away his best weapon and use one of the weapons above.

I've always had trouble with longsword and sunswords and they would eventually put the weapon away or hit for 0 at a shield.

I’ll be releasing a compilation video of fights I’ve had with Tier 2 and Tier 3 fighters (Red and white highlight fighter) using this build.
Last edited by Petehog on Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Petehog

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#10
Ok, here’s the video compilation.

Watch on youtube.com


This shows all Tier 2 and Tier 3 Brotherhood of Blood fighters. This shows wins and losses. The losses in this video are really interesting because these guys used techniques I haven’t seen before.

Happy Creature, Simon and Goofslayer successfully countered this build.

Happy Creature used a weapon that attacked so quickly I didn’t have time to block. It comes out faster than the Warped Sword attacks and the attacks are so blindingly fast I didn’t have time to block. I’m not sure whether he’s using the Melu Scimitar, Red Rust Scimitar or Falchion. I think it's mostly because I *rarely* see anyone use that weapon so I'm not used to the timing.

Goofslayer used a strange combination of longsword and Estoc. But I think what he/she did that earned the win was some sort of dead-angling where her attacks seemed to go right through the shield.. It happened quite a few times where I had to switch out of the shield. She's also pretty damn good at the Estoc

Simon (at the end of the video) wore a Lloyce shield so he was able to heal himself throughout the fight. It threw me off because I was certain he should have died at least three times in our fight but he kept having health back.


Alshain (Tier 2) with Estoc
Yigexiaomeimei (Tier 2) with Longsword
Apheilion (Tier 2) with Longsword
Matt (Tier 2) with longsword
Atilla (Tier 2) with Estoc
Belial (Tier 2) with Alonne's Katana
Cable (Tier 2) with Blacksteel katana
Dark Orchild (Tier 2) with Black Flamestone dagger
:^( (Tier 2) Using a sunsword. Switched out of ti. Then used Estoc.
Brad (Tier 2) Using a warped sword
Grimlocke (Tier 2) using a dagger and magic
Gypsy (Tier 2) Using a Murukamo
Happy creature (Tier 2) Using a ??? weapon. I lost this one
Lambert (Tier 2) Using a Santier's spear
Happy Creature (Tier 2) (rematch) Using an ice rapier and a small axe
The Biggers Formula (Tier 2) Using a Roaring Halberd
NORTHZILLA LIVES (Tier 2) using a Murukamo
Lobster the Bro (Tier 2) using a Lion warrior axe
NecroVoodoo (Tier 2) Using a katana
Onion Warrior (Tier 2) Using a Scythe
Quin**an (Tier 2) Using an ice rapier and a sunsword
Richard (Tier 2) Using a dagger
Shinobu Oshino (Tier 2) Using a rapier
R4ITO (Tier 2) Using a Blacksteel katana
Wormie (Tier 2) Uising a rapier
**Froy (Tier 2) Using a Zweihander
D** (Tier 2) Using an ice rapier, magic and katana
Kingslanding (Tier 2) Using a Dragon's tooth club
goof slayer (Tier 2) Using an Estoc and a longsword and dead angling through the shield. Lost this fight.
Prince Ralph IV (Tier 2) Some ultra axe
Kiel (Tier 2) Longsword?
***up (Tier 2) Katana
Simon (Tier 2) Spear with healing Lloyce shield. Lost this fight.