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qeter

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#4471
Fexelea wrote:I hate what has happened to Game of Thrones. I actually spent hours being livid about the outcomes of E3 and E4 - pretty much has made me decide not to watch the ending so I don't go Dracarys on the world

@qeter

why do you think it turned out this way?
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EldritchImagination

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#4472
Fexelea wrote:I hate what has happened to Game of Thrones. I actually spent hours being livid about the outcomes of E3 and E4 - pretty much has made me decide not to watch the ending so I don't go Dracarys on the world

@qeter


I've been having a similar experience with the recent difficulty controversy over Sekiro Shadows die twice. I've been running game philosophy and general philosophical principles through my mind over and over, in multiple different ways that I could probably write an essay or two about the nature of game difficulty and gamers relation to it, the problems with certain viewpoints, and gaming psychology.


Also I just bought God of War recently. Got working again, two part time jobs, one at a Nursery doing general outdoor work (raking, stacking, repair, etc.), and another doing dock assembly with an ex-cop and two stoners.
There once was a hunter from Nantuckit
Who was going to die anyway, so he said, "fu*k it!"
"I’ll hunt the beasts of Yarnam.
To get blood vials, I’ll farm them,
and kill them all before I kick the bucket."
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EldritchImagination

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#4473
I just thought of something awesome, would it not be totally kickass for Sekiro to have an unlockable Samurai Jack costume?
There once was a hunter from Nantuckit
Who was going to die anyway, so he said, "fu*k it!"
"I’ll hunt the beasts of Yarnam.
To get blood vials, I’ll farm them,
and kill them all before I kick the bucket."
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Nahztek-Shadowpath

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#4474
I’ve always said that people calling the Souls series
‘So hard!’... Just proves one thing.
There is an entire generation of gamers spoiled by the interactive cutscenes-style console games that started with PS2 and dominated the PS3 system.

Games that ‘tell’ you what button to press and when to press it have not always been a thing.
The reality is, most games on NES, SNES, SEGA, and even PS1, used to be as hard as Dark Souls.

These days, any game that makes you pay attention is called ‘Soulslike’ as if they invented difficulty in games.
Found a difficult sidescroller? Oh it’s Soulslike.
This shooter giving you pain? Well, that fine. It’s a Soulslike shooter.
That rts being a challenge? It’s Sooouuulslike.
This open world survival grinder punished you too much? Well, it’s a Soulslike game. Get over it.

Difficulty is not enough to make a game Soulslike. Most games used to be difficult because they weren’t nearly as good to look at. As graphics improved, difficulty lessened. For awhile, console games were practically just interactive movies (bad movies).

Is Sekiro difficult?
Yes. But not very fun because you have little to plan for or even think about. It’s all deflection twitch reaction (The prosthetics are a joke). You encounter difficult boss after boss and fight them how they are meant to be fought or you die. It’s boring.
Is it Soulslike?
No. It’s Tenchulike, but still not fun because the stealth is more of a mini game that you can have fun with or be plain sloppy with. Doesn’t matter.

Sekiro could have been a great ninja game, but they had to make it a boss hunting game also, which is boring unless I can customize my character and their build.
Most of the difficulty in Sekiro felt contrived. It looks great. Plays great.
But it’s about as boring as it gets.
No I haven’t beaten it. The difficulty didn’t push me away. The repetition of bait/deflect bait/deflect ruined it.
(I beat the Butterfly fourth try. I could have kept going.
But I have no desire. Story wasn’t intriguing enough to care about either. That kid acts like a prick, if I’m just being honest).
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EldritchImagination

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#4475
Nahztek-Shadowpath wrote:I’ve always said that people calling the Souls series
‘So hard!’... Just proves one thing.
There is an entire generation of gamers spoiled by the interactive cutscenes-style console games that started with PS2 and dominated the PS3 system.


I wouldn't say spoiled, so much as more mass appealing or diversely appealing. The difficult games of old were, from what I've seen and remembered, only attracted young kids who had the time, drive, and want to master the games, and even then, it wasn't for all of them. Point is, games were and have been hard since days of old, but some people prefer games with greater ease of play, due to many reasons. I myself sometimes enjoy a good, easy, no strain or pain game that simply tells a story with just enough interactivity to be a game. One reason I like walking simulators Like What Remains of Edith Finch, The Stanley Parable, and Oxenfree.

I wouldn't say this makes people spoiled, just liking their games a different way. People have fun in many different ways. That being said, some games are straight up Horsesh!t with how much hand holding, or lack of gameplay they have. I could not for the life of me get over just how much tutorializing Ni No Kuni had. Soooooooo much redundant exposition about how to play. It was like they were expecting kindergartners with the attention span of flies to be playing it.

Nahztek-Shadowpath wrote:Games that ‘tell’ you what button to press and when to press it have not always been a thing.
The reality is, most games on NES, SNES, SEGA, and even PS1, used to be as hard as Dark Souls.


hard and harder. Mostly the latter.

Nahztek-Shadowpath wrote:These days, any game that makes you pay attention is called ‘Soulslike’ as if they invented difficulty in games.
Found a difficult sidescroller? Oh it’s Soulslike.
This shooter giving you pain? Well, that fine. It’s a Soulslike shooter.
That rts being a challenge? It’s Sooouuulslike.
This open world survival grinder punished you too much? Well, it’s a Soulslike game. Get over it.


I honestly think the driving force for this equation of Souls games to difficulty, only difficulty, is as a result of memeification. Some guys started joking about Souls being super hard, and that joke caught enough traction, and got enough attention to spread like wildfire, so people who probably never even played or cared to play a souls game just throw the "souls level difficulty" term around willy nilly, because so many others do it too.

Kind of like how sayings and phrases get popular, and everyone hears about it, and echos it, not because they understand the full meaning of the phrase itself, but because they simply heard someone else use it to describe this, so they think that's what it means without fully knowing what they're actually saying, like people who say romances (among other things) are "still a better love story than Twilight", but probably never even watched the movie, just know that it has a bad reputation, so they too think it's bad. This perspective is then shaped in the minds of so many people who never personally experienced the thing they're talking about, but already have a definite opinion of it because "well this person said it's like this, so it must be true". It's the same social flaw that has bred many other prejudices and preconceptions about things that people don't really know or care to really know.

Hard games are souls-like because that's how a bunch of people who played souls or heard about it's difficulty from people who played souls started comparing hard games to souls as it was the main defining similarity, and the perception of the "souls-like means hard game" just grew from there, like many cultural trends and memes. Humans appear to be social copy cats by nature.

Nahztek-Shadowpath wrote:Difficulty is not enough to make a game Soulslike. Most games used to be difficult because they weren’t nearly as good to look at. As graphics improved, difficulty lessened. For awhile, console games were practically just interactive movies (bad movies).


Okay, this I don't really agree with. I believe that the original games, arcade games, were difficult due to the fact that they made their money from repeat players, and if a kid could beat the game in one go, they wouldn't come back again and again, and keep spending those sweet chrome Washingtons. Games were made really hard to be high difficulty to compel kids to keep coming back and finally beat the game. Sometimes, they weren't even made hard, just tedious, like that Dirk the Daring Dragon Quest game, which was literally just one long QTE, and if you knew what to press and when, you win, but it was learning what to press that was the challenge, requiring many, many playthroughs and practice to memorize what to do, and thus a lot o quarters to do it. Cha-ching! Forcing kids to learn the game through trial and error the get as much money out of them as possible.

Hell, sometimes, the games weren't even completed, as in they were literally not finished by the developers, and sold on false promises of a hellofa ending that no one would get to because they deliberately made the games soooo hard they thought no one would ever beat the game and realize the con. A case of making the games impossibly hard so you don't realize the game isn't finished.

When ported to consoles and home PCs, the high difficulty philosophy remained, but for a different reason, being that, due to hardware and software limitations, you couldn't really make a long game, a game with lots of content, such as in some cases, a few lines of text could take up as much space as a boss fight. Because of this, games were made difficult to increase longevity, making the game take a long time to beat because there was so few game there, as back then, games cost like, what, 50$ standard, for games that, if you had the skill, could beat in 1-2 hours, or even less. The games had to be hard so that game could last. I've tried a few of these titles, Contra, Mike Tyson's punch out, Castlevannia (the original), Ghosts'n'Goblins, Ninja Gaiden (the originals), and they are short, but the difficulty is so high that in order to progress, you had to memorize enemy patterns, master narrow platforming, Solve extremely obtuse and vague puzzles, and sometimes bypass straight up BS difficulty spikes that are beyond unfair.

It was when video game technology improved and developers got better with making games, and new developers with different visions for games came in, that they could afford to make games easier because they could put enough content in the game that, even if played at a lower difficulty, the buyer could still get their money's worth out of it. Plus, as an industry expands, so too does it's potential audience, and as a lot of people weren't as good at games as the kids who practiced fervently over it, making the games more accessible to larger masses was a good means growing their audience.

Nahztek-Shadowpath wrote:Is Sekiro difficult?
Yes. But not very fun because you have little to plan for or even think about. It’s all deflection twitch reaction (The prosthetics are a joke). You encounter difficult boss after boss and fight them how they are meant to be fought or you die. It’s boring.
Is it Soulslike?
No. It’s Tenchulike, but still not fun because the stealth is more of a mini game that you can have fun with or be plain sloppy with. Doesn’t matter.

Sekiro could have been a great ninja game, but they had to make it a boss hunting game also, which is boring unless I can customize my character and their build.
Most of the difficulty in Sekiro felt contrived. It looks great. Plays great.
But it’s about as boring as it gets.
No I haven’t beaten it. The difficulty didn’t push me away. The repetition of bait/deflect bait/deflect ruined it.
(I beat the Butterfly fourth try. I could have kept going.
But I have no desire. Story wasn’t intriguing enough to care about either. That kid acts like a prick, if I’m just being honest).


Well, damn, and I was so wanting to play it. Honestly, my desire to play Sekiro was soured by the controversy. The toxic conflict surrounding it has made me not even to want to touch it till the heat dies down. That's why I bought God of War instead as a new Hack 'n' Slash.
Last edited by EldritchImagination on Mon May 13, 2019 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There once was a hunter from Nantuckit
Who was going to die anyway, so he said, "fu*k it!"
"I’ll hunt the beasts of Yarnam.
To get blood vials, I’ll farm them,
and kill them all before I kick the bucket."
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Lich180

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#4476
God of War is freaking amazing, story and gameplay wise. Damn game had me nearly in tears a few times.

Sekiro really is about twitch reactions, and pattern recognition more than Souls was. Not that it's bad, just different. I've been stuck on Genichiro for... Weeks, and can't make progress against him.

Decided instead to start playing Kingdom Come Deliverance again, and do all the DLC for it.
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Nahztek-Shadowpath

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#4477
Good points, but when you described what made old games hard, you might as well have been talking about Souls (aside from the puzzles), which was my point.

You should try Sekiro. It isn’t bad at all. I just don’t care for it. I don’t have the patience to learn bosses with someone else’s character.
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Nahztek-Shadowpath

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#4478
Lich180 wrote:God of War is freaking amazing, story and gameplay wise. Damn game had me nearly in tears a few times.

Sekiro really is about twitch reactions, and pattern recognition more than Souls was. Not that it's bad, just different. I've been stuck on Genichiro for... Weeks, and can't make progress against him.

Decided instead to start playing Kingdom Come Deliverance again, and do all the DLC for it.



Yeah, I fought him for 2 hours. Made progress every fight. Eventually got him down to a chip of life in his second phase and then died. Kept trying but by that point I was so tired of doing it that I could barley get him to the second phase again. Gave it a break. In 3 weeks I haven’t had a single inclination to play again.

It’s not fun enough to care. I enjoyed fighting the guy on the horse and the Butterfly was ok. Every mini-boss was just a pain in the @$$.

Good game. I like seeing FS doing something new. It’s just not for me.
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#4479
Right now Genichiro is the only thing standing in my way of progress. I've got every other mini boss down besides the one headless I can't seem to beat. Kinda frustrating, but I figure a break was needed cuz I kinda put in like 40 hours in 2 weeks lol. That's a lot for me to focus on one game, and I burned out.

Oh and I found out that there is a demo of Monster Hunter World up on PSN right now, gonna download that and try it out. Been on my list of things to try, just held off because of my backlog and stuff. Goes from the 9th to the 20th and has the first few missions available.
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Nahztek-Shadowpath

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#4480
MHW is the only reason I haven’t sold my PS4. It’s a fantastic game. I can’t wait for the Xpac.
Multiplayer PvE feels more rewarding than any other non-MMO game I’ve ever played. The diversity of weapons gives plenty of reason to experiment. The world is beautiful.
And Palicos. Yes. They really are that great.

Matter of fact, I might even turn my PS+ back on soon because I kind of miss playing.
If you get it, add me. I’m pretty decent.
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