Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
 3
Reply  
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

(Many Other Functions)

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 2,429.54
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16980
Reputation: 594
Wiki Edits: 460
#21
I think the Painted World could use a revisit with all the stuff DS3 dropped on us about it.

For the doll, there actually is a clue. After you unlock the shortcut from the Parish to Firelink the Crestfallen Warrior will say the following:

"You again?
There's nothing to speak about, really.
Oh, actually… Something strange did happen.
That crow flew off with somebody in its clutches. I think it was a man curled up in a ball.
Stranger things have happened, right?
No, maybe not…"


This is pretty weak evidence for who might have delivered the doll, but if is intended to be a clue then the most logical explanation would be Lautrec. Lautrec is the NPC who would leave the Parish at this time. The issue there is trying to connect him to the Painted World.

If we go off the rails a bit, there was a trailer when the game was first released that showed a trio hanging out at Firelink (Oscar, Tarkus and I believe the Fire Keeper Anastacia). Oscar was originally intended to wander around much like the Prince of Boletaria in Demon's Souls where you have to help him out. If I recall right, it shifted to Solaire's and Siegmeyer's characters.

Anyway, if the trailer was built off early story concepts, it places a connection between Oscar and Tarkus. We know Tarkus met his fate before being able to enter the Painted World (or was fatally wounded inside it and barely managed to escape. If they were traveling companions or at least on friendly terms, the trailer could be a hint that both parties reached Anor Londo. Oscar's dialogue seems to make this unlikely as he seems unaware that there are two bells and his suggestion is that he didn't as he "failed" his mission. He could be telling half truths but it's hard to say for certain. Here's the trailer (scene in question is right about the minute mark). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6xaY64GNfs

Anyway, Oscar dies and goes hollow after we meet him, but it doesn't mean he couldn't have dropped something while hollow.

Going back to Lautrec, it's hard to pin an exact motivation, but we can see some of his travels. He's likely been to the catacombs before us (since he talks about despising Patches). He ends up in Anor Londo. So there is a decent chance he's the one who traveled back to the Asylum. Oscar we know wants to be helpful (or is hollow depending on timeline) so we have a reason for the doll to be dropped. Lautrec might if he thinks it will result in him getting what he wants. If we can connect that, it'd be a good victory for lore.
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Dragonscholar

Casual
Convict

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:29 am
Souls: 513.00
Posts: 63
Reputation: 4
#22
skarekrow13 wrote:That's what I was alluding to when I said there's reason for a falling out.

The big thing is that there's just as much evidence showing collaboration.

It's why I think of her as neutral. Wrong is wrong to Velka based on deeds rather than power source. The gods promote fire regardless of cost. Manus and daughters promote the dark.

Velka is the only one promoting ethics


I think the Furtive Pygmy might have been quite neutral in the beginning (War of dragons and the "golden" Age of Fire), as the opposition came when the fire started fading and the Age of Dark arrived. Kaathe stated that he patiently waited during the Age of Fire. It's only later that Gwyn, out of fear of the Dark, decided to Link the fire and mess up everything. Here is the dialogue:

"Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul, and waited for Fire to subside. And soon, the flames did fade, and only Dark remained. Thus began the age of men, the Age of Dark. However... Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark. Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans, and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them, Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature. By sacrificing himself to link the Fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans, Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord."

My guess is that Gwyn didn't expect that the FP had the power to bring about a new age, so he didn't care much about him before the Fire started fading. I'm not sure when he "exiled" the pygmies to the Ringed City, but I think it was only then.

Another interesting thing is that the first game's intro and lore never show the Pygmy interacting with the other Lords. All we have is the Ringed City's statue and lore, which talks about pygmies, not the Furtive Pygmy specifically. That makes it all the more difficult to see if the FP was a "rogue deity" (Velka), i.e. someone who ended up going against them, or simply a threat from the start. I do think that if the FP was seen as a threat from the start, the 3 Lords would unite against him.

Lastly, the Four Kings might be useful here: Gwyn gave them part of his power, never expecting them to end up on the opposite side by falling to the Dark. I do think that Gwyn was surprised by the Fire fading and the Dark taking over, which prompted the Lords to take desperate measures (like attempting to create a new Fire and Linking the Fire).
Avatar

dn1nd

Chosen Undead
Peacemaker

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:17 pm
Location: Lurking In The Archives
Souls: 0.00
Bank: 43,374.00
Posts: 4085
Reputation: 182
Wiki Edits: 116
#23
If We Are Throwing Out Theories On How The Peculiar Doll Got There And What Man Was Transported Over. My Guess Is Going To Be The Black Knights Were The Men Transported Over By The Crow And The One In Front Of The Cell Dropped It.

Thinking On The Black Knights Placement, One Is Guarding The Doll And The Other Seems To be Guarding Oscar. I Wonder If They Followed Him Back To The Asylum.

A Few Things That Have Been Grating On Me With Wanting To Tie Into DS2 And DS3, Are The Crows Nests, The One In Firelink I Have Been Wanting To Tie To Pickle Pee In DS3, While The 2 In Undead Asylum I Have Been Wanting To Tie To Dyna And Tillo. But There Is No Lore Allowing Me To Do So.

As For The Pygmy, My Best Explanation Is Given That Furtive Means Secret, The Name Isn't Pluralized To Hide The Fact That There Were Many Pygmies. In DS3 We See Many Pygmy Lords Being Killed By Gael. My Assumption Is Manus Was One Of These Lord's At One Point And He Merely Accumulated Enough Humanity To Become The Father Of The Abyss. Manus Could Have Even Been The First Pygmy Lord And That Is Why He Is Called A Primeval Man.

Given That Halflight IN DS3 Came From Oolacile It Makes Sense That Oolacile When They Encountered Manus Found Him In The Ringed City. But That's Just My Guess On It All. Manus Was Mention To Have His Tomb DIsturbed, I Suspect The Chasm Of The Darkness Might Be Where This Tomb Was. I Remember Kaathe Was The Most Likely Candidate Of Causing Manus' Tomb To Be Disturbed And Given How Close Darkroot Which Was Once Oolacile Is To New Londo, Kaathe Didn't Have Far To FInd A New Group Of HUmans To Seduce And Corrupt. That Being The 4 Kings Of New Londo.

Shop Icon

DivineFlask

Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:18 am
Souls: 95.00
Posts: 7
Reputation: 1
#24
Ok so going with the crow being Velka theory a little bit more...

Firstly, we know that there's a hole in the top of the cell so it is actually possible that the crow dropped the doll into it just as Oscar dropped the key.

Secondly, why would she do this in such a convoluted manner? I think we first have to question why would any character try to go back to the Asylum. As far as I can see, there are two reasons. One is to repay Oscar by putting him out of his misery which is unfortunately all we can do for him by this point. In this regard, it could be seen as us paying back a debt and balancing the scales so to speak.

The second choice, is that our character believes they belong there. They feel themselves hollowing and want to be locked away so that they can't hurt anyone else. We are even greeted by an angry mob with torches, similar to the mob that surrounded and killed the own of a twin humanity in the undead burg.

Again this could be interpreted as a just and selfless act which may be why Velka would give us the key to a different kind of prison. One that, while hostile in-game, has been known to take people in. It also appears to be the natural place to lock away all things connected to humanity and the dark.

A slightly more boring idea is that the flow of time is convoluted and her doll just happened to come forward a little. Perhaps Priscilla was kept in the asylum until the painting was finished.

lordherpie

Addicted
First Warden

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:09 am
Souls: 803.00
Posts: 109
Reputation: 5
#25
The players motives for returning are given on the flavor text on the asylum key from firelink. it taunts us, the player, if we are brave enough to go back and 'liberate it'. But as this is dark souls... our avatar is manipulated every step of the way.

the game adresses us more directly then most games. our character does not have personality or history... his decisions are really our own. So what motivated you to go back?

Dark souls makes clever use of what people who play videogames think they know about the media. On first glance Dark souls story isnt much more complicated than the story of your average Mario game. Ring bells, find lordvessel, kill boss, save world.
It is only after we step away from simply following orders that we discover that dark souls is actually a real piece of art that doesnt only tell a rich and complex story, but also uses the media (videogame) in a unique way to really make the player (and not just his/her avatar) a part of that story.
Even the death-hollowing mechanism ties in with your own experiences playing the game... quitting DS because of frustrating difficulty could very well be the RL equivalent for becoming a mindless hollow.

TL;DR the motives of your character are irrelevant for the lore, since this really is you, and FROM adresses YOU directly in many ways.

This is all not relevant for Velka's story, but i thought i'd share my visions on the main character and their (our) motivations.

italofoca

Addicted
First Warden

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:51 am
Souls: 1,197.50
Posts: 161
Reputation: 9
#26
'why is velka described as a god if she doesnt have a lord soul'

She is described as a god because she is one. Holding a lord soul and being a god is a different thing. The Witch of Izalith holds a lord soul but she is never described as a deity. The fact that the Witch of Izalith has no miracles of her own further reinforces that. On the other hand Allfather Lloyd who is Gwyn's uncle is a god but don't hold any Lord Soul as far as we can tell (it's never established that Gwyn gave part of his lord soul to him, although that is a possiblity).

Velka is described as god and she has miracles of her own, so her godhood is hard fact I think.

'what are her origins since if she doesnt have alord soul and isnt human, it doesnt seem like her existence is linked to the first flame?'

What does makes one a god if not a lord souls... I think people tend to over complicate this by assuming gods needs a special origin or a explanation. Dark Souls universe have many fantastical beings all different from each other. We have giants, dragons, humans, gods, mushroom people and so on. Some of then we know the origin (like, we know the Demons came from the Bed of Chaos), most of then we don't.

Gods are just another race of being and it is suggested they have originated with the appearance of First Flame since they are "alive". I think this idea gods are connected to the Lord souls comes from the theory that the race of god was created by Gwyn when he acquire his Lord Soul and before that Gwyn was just like everyone else. Don't forget this is just a theory and not hard fact. If something in the game does not fit this view we should question the theory 'Are gods just humans with Gwyn souls?' and not the fact 'Velka is a god'.

'why is she feared'

If you take a look at Velka's items and spells you see that she is a god of law and punishment. I think she is feared simply because not even Anor Londo gods where free of her judgement. Maybe this is the reason she is a rogue god, as she would seek to punish god's sins subverting Gwyn's authority. I also believe this is the reason why she created the Occult Amber - to give her a edge vs. the gods when/if the situation where she would have to confront then arise. However this is all speculative theory.

I don't believe she was exactly antagonistic to then, just had a fallout at some point. I speculate one of the gods sinned but Gwyn denied her judgment. This sin could be anything - Gwyn attempt to extend the age of fire indefinitely, the conception of Priscilla, Gwyn first born betrayal of his covenant with his father by pursuing the way of dragons or something else.

'she is linked to the painted world, but only trough symbolism... what is the relevance of velka when it comes to the painted world(s?)'

It's hard to tell as the very purpose of the painted world itself was lost in time and we simply don't know it for sure.

My personal theory is that Velkar being denied to punish a god's sin caused to take arms against the gods of Anor London and she was defeated, either killed or exiled. Her portfolio was then bestowed upon Gwyndolin who created the Darkmoon Blade to carry out her duties but never against his own kin.

The fortress in the painted world was Velka's place, left to ruins after her defeat and sealed behind the painting. There Gwyn kept hidden her occult ember meant to make weapons that could execute a god sinner.

After many years followers of Velka (a pardoner and the crow people) took pilgrimage to the paint in search of a clue to where she is but in the end found she was dead/gone and decided to stay there living in "peace" among the ruins.
 3