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Fexelea

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#3421
Whilst I agree that what is happening in the UK is a constant treatment of symptoms instead of the actual disease (societal and cultural failures), this thread was for Trump discussion so keep it to his politics so it can actually be discussed rather than general sentiments or leanings.

I honestly haven't had the time to respond to much that is posted, work is way too busy right now, but I do read when people comment and post stuff.

An interesting "non trump" but related conversation could be about that conversation that Facebook just had with US senators. There's just something off about that guy isn't there? I can't put my finger on it, felt "uncanny valley"
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Lich180

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#3422
Zuckerberg is most likely a sociopath, he doesn't care about other people's emotions or anything. He's incredibly awkward, and the Senate committee interviewing him are one: old and unfamiliar with technology and two: have had campaign funds donated by Facebook.

Also don't forget: Facebook has been selling it's users information (as in, ALL OF THEM) to various companies, INCLUDING many foreign ones that used that information to push political campaigns (Cambridge Analytica for one), and may have played a role in Brexit, Trump, and many others.
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#3423
Praise-the-sun wrote:>Handguns are banned
>Violent crime doesn't go down
>People start stabbing each instead
>The problem must be with knife accessibility

Is this the British train of thought?


I think the argument there is that if a crazy person is gonna go on a crazy violent rampage no matter what weapons the law says they're allowed to own, then at least a "mass stabbing" is typically slightly less lethal than a "mass shooting."
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Lich180

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#3424
So, Trump's lawyer, this Cohen guy, had his office raided by the FBI last week. This is all part of the Mueller investigation. Cohen has been linked to hush money payments to various people including Stormy Daniels and a few others, including forcing people to sign NDAs.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-cohens-third-client-is-sean-hannity

Turns out, another client of Cohen is Sean Hannity, of Fox News. Oh, did I mention that Trump has been freaking out on Twitter nearly constantly the last few days? What exactly is hiding?

If you haven't been keeping up, please do yourself a favor and catch up with the current events. It's like a soap opera, but in real life!
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Fexelea

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#3425
Lich - the stuff you are saying as fact is not so cut and dry, and a lot of it should be rather concerning to the US in general. Privileged lawyer-client communications and their confidentiality are an integral part of the US justice system, and this raid is essentially about to set precedent that this can be just done away with when convenient. To give you an idea of why this is so dangerous: This is the equivalent of a cop placing evidence to convict someone they *know* but can't *prove* is a criminal. You'd think it's fine to do it to the "bad guy", but what happens when the cop is wrong? (And many times they are)

So, I think Trump is 100% right to be extremely mad about this, because I would be too. Now, of course, the media says that this is about Mueller. But Mueller was set to investigate whether there was collusion with Russia, not whether Michael Cohen had dirty backoffice deals pre-election within your country and without Russia. So, it already has escalated to "Find something" rather than the stated original purpose. They are playing it both ways: people like you think it's part of the Mueller investigation, whilst legally they say it is NOT part and they just referred the matter to a third party because they found something somewhere else.

Of course, if people have broken the law they need to be held accountable. But whilst all animals are equal, some are more equal than others - and what you are watching as a "soap opera" looks to me more like a horror movie for the long-term implications of politically-motivated prosecution based on illegally obtained information.

The release of Hannity's name as a Client (that Hannity is saying he has never paid legal fees so he is not, technically, a client but a potential one) seems 100% nonsensical at this point. This may change with time, but right now it seems like it was done to get headlines and try to create confusion among people to correlate: Mueller-Trump-Cohen-Hannity > CRIMES

That correlation and guilt by association, and what seems to be an essential fishing expedition are dangerous things to play with and cheer on. US law is based on precedent. This will come to bite regular people in the rear.

Oh, and that site you linked tried to hit me with an incredible 95 freaking trackers. I recommend you never visit it again, it's worse than Facebook.
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Lich180

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#3426
Well thanks for the warning about the site, Fex. I don't see all the trackers and stuff on mobile.

The entire thing concerns me, from either end. One way, you have a political scandal to rival Nixon and possible influence by foreign powers, and the other you potentially have a violation of client-lawyer information and am overreach of the law.

My understanding of lawyer-client confidentially is this though: if you commit a crime, and admit you did it to a lawyer, who then covers up your crime for you, the lawyer is then an accomplice to you. As in, the lawyer helps you commit a crime or cover one up, and that is no longer subject to lawyer-client confidentially.

I'll admit I'm learning a hell of a lot this year. Oh, also parts of the Russia investigation are touching on other cases the DoJ is bringing up, like the one with Stormy Daniels, and another between Trump-his lawyer-Hannity. They are separate cases, that are linked by common threads.

The whole thing is a massive cluster of problems, and I really hope it gets sorted out. I doubt the Mueller investigation is any kind of conspiracy, as it's as bipartisan as it could be. Mueller himself is a Republican, after all.
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Fexelea

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#3427
That would technically make him into an accessory - but in this specific instance the allegation is an investigation into whether a payment (allegedly) made to Stormy Daniels "violated tax, campaign or finance laws"

AKA: They don't actually know if this payment was made, if it was illegal or even if it was known / approved by Trump. Thus, this is being presented legally as something *completely* separate from "russian collusion" - and actually very inconsequential (in fact, Bernie Sanders paid a campaign violation for accepting illegal Australian help during the 2016 election. The fine was 14,000 USD. These violations are NOT something people go to jail for / get impeached for.)

Yet they used this really weak reasoning to justify a raid and COMPLETE seizure of ALL client-attorney communications for Trump's lawyer. This gives them access to information they are not legally allowed to see, furthering the possibility to find "crimes". Now, again, one should not commit crimes. But your justice system doesn't investigate people, it investigates crimes. Right now it's investigating people, and finding crimes to investigate them for. That is wrong, leads to harassment, and sets a precedent you can get on the police's "radar" and they can storm your house and your lawyers house trying to find anything else they can send you to jail for.

On top of that, what is coming out of the raid? Leaks of completely legal "scandals" that dominate news cycle and create the illusion of problems, leading to mass-hysteria.

1. A GOP contributor paid off some mistress
2. Sean Hannity has alleged ties to a lawyer (So what?)

To me it looks like circular feeding of illegally obtained information, or "laundering" of evidence. This is very dangerous, and will have deep and probably unexpected implications in your justice system (and around the world since the US is in the business of sueing foreign corporations all the time)
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Castielle

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#3428
The scariest thing about the news in 2018 is that things are only being reported that fit someone's agenda. You are NOT seeing news that doesn't fit that agenda. For example, Parkland Shooter story all over the news about gun violence and the second amendment for weeks. The story about how a school safety officer stopped a Maryland school shooter got 1 day of coverage.

Just remember the media want's you to focus on WHAT'S HERE so you don't see --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->what's over here

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githcheater

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#3429
How is this fishing expedition any different than the Clinton investigation twenty years ago? The Whitewater investigation evolved into the Monica investigation. Here, the Russia investigation is evolving into the Stormy Daniels investigation.

In both cases, the investigations followed a trail that led to something entirely lurid ... and then the inevitable cover up that followed ... The lies and denials are worse than the original "crime".

One cannot glorify the Clinton investigation, and then cry foul over the Trump investigation.

Bill and Don are ethically challenged kindred horndog brothers.
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Fexelea

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#3430
Whitewater was not a partisan attempt to de-legitimize an election because "the wrong person won", and the Lewinski thing was brought up because she told a co-worker (not a lawyer) who taped the talk. Even then, Clinton's troubles with Lewinski were not because he had the affair (although nowadays that would be seen as sexual harassment as he was her boss), but because he lied about it under oath.

It seems weird to associate the two when they have such different starting points, and when no raid on a lawyer has occurred.

That said, when the Lewinski scandal was ongoing, I was of the opinion - which I still hold - that sex between consenting adults is non of other people's business and it seemed like a pointless and evil thing to do to his family. But... an affair by the president with an intern in the oval office is likely to deserve more visibility than an affair by a private citizen on non-government property.
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