Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
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tomas

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#11
The "manifestation" is the old firekeeper from the opening cinematic (shanalotte in the future).

As for present day drangleic shanalotte she's pretty mystical hence her ability to appear all over the place. If we see her again its probs her moving around again like the other times we meet her.
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Nahztek

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#12
tomas wrote:The "manifestation" is the old firekeeper from the opening cinematic (shanalotte in the future).




that's the theory that I like the best regarding the 'manifestation' line.
I was just too lazy to mention it, I guess.
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tomas

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#13
Yea hopefully people don't think I'm stating it as fact, I was/am similarly lazy tonight and *really* couldn't be bothered going into the depth required in the archives lol
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panos

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#14
Why would she be a serpent? I doesn't make much sense.

Normal/human firekeepers couldnt keep the fire burning for ever, since they were creatures inside the circle of life-undeath. Aldia and Vendrick tried to create a new firekeeper that she would a being outside the circle, so they tried to mix human with dragons, which were indeed creatures outside of the circle. They created Shanalotte in the end but as she says, ''she didn't come out as intended'', so she failed.
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#15
Been thinking a lot about serpents being failed dragons.

We see this in DKS1. The pisaca in Duke's archives are serpent like and we know the 2 that do not attack initially are inferred to be maidens of Gwynevere. What if the pisaca are failed dragons? The everlasting dragon was able to make dragonoids with dragon scales. Maybe Seathe was attempting to make a female scaleless dragon to mate with and that was how he created all the pisaca.it would make sense since they are serpent like in appearance.

Seathe must have succeeded to a degree since Priscilla was born. I doubt that Gwynevere was Priscilla's mother because Gwyn would have went to war with Seathe over defiling his daughter and Flann would have warred with Seathe over his bride. So I am under the belief that a pisaca birthed Priscilla and possibly died in the process.

This would make Priscilla half human and half dragon, just like Shanalotte. Makes more sense on where Aldia got his idea from. Gwyn would have seen such a creature as an abomination since he detested dragons so much and seemed to also dislike humans. Where as Vendrick and Aldia saw Shanalotte as a beacon of hope. There are more parallels one being locked away in a painting while the other was locked behind a dragon behind a king's gate.

A few real life myths about pisaca

Pisacas have the power to assume different forms at will, and may also become invisible. They feed on human energies. Sometimes, they possess human beings and alter their thoughts, and the victims are afflicted with a variety of maladies and abnormalities like insanity.

They are all the progeny of the fallen gods, and therefore some of them bear the forms of gods also; while some are of human forms, and others are as serpents and snakes in their appearance.

They are possessed of desire, envy, fear, anger and avarice, and are liable to delusion and illusion also; and are capable of subjection by means of the spell of mantras, charm of drugs and of other rites and practices.



After reading through what the myths. It makes sense for Seathe to create the pisaca since he desired a female to bed. It also makes sense on why the Snakemen set off an alarm that causes the pisaca to leave their cell. according to myths they would feast on corpses. It also makes sense on why Logan went crazy. Since he was locked away nearby the pisaca where they could influence his thoughts and the overwhelming amount of Seathe's secrets that was revealed, drove Logan over the edge.

If Aldia is Seathe's reincarnation then we can see how Seathe's soul influenced Aldia and their experiments mirrored each other.

I still do not think Priscilla or Shanalotte are primordial serpents. I think they are true hybrids and that the piscara are failed dragons while dragonoids are the first steps to becoming dragon.

Just some more wild speculation and rationalizations.

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Mr_Rift

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#16
The problem is that serpents are considered to be "failed" dragons.

You can't naturally fail to grow into something... I can't just fail to become an adult (unless I die), if it's just a natural process then its gonna happen regardless of an individuals input.

Failed, to me, implies that it was an process that individuals actively chose undertook. This all links back to my Dragon-Mage Theory (props to Nahztek for naming it :P ) Dragons were once mages who underwent a process to become Dragons... those who failed in the process either ended up as Serpents or really screwed up and ended up as Seath.

In a series of Light and Dark, switching between the two in a constant tug of war... an age of grey nothingness doesn't seem like a natural part of the world. I think the Age of Ancients mentioned in DkS1 was just a bunch of Mage-Turned Dragons that took over the world in the age before Gwyns and managed to keep the First Flame at a low simmer for a while. But, little did they know, the flame naturally restarts on it's own and it kick started another age.

The Everlasting Dragons were never immortal, their stone scales just gave them good armor and meant that they couldn't die of old age. They're really not all that.

As for Shanalotte and Priscilla, half human/half dragon hybrids seem a lot more feasible if you consider the shared origins of both species. If dragons were once human, mating with a human would something like.... metaphor time - a human and a cyborg mating, they're both basically human but the kid would grow with some machine parts. In this case, both parents were basically human to start with, Shanalotte and Priscilla both just got some dragon traits from their draconian parent.

Id say being a True Dragon is the end goal - You screw up you either become a serpent or a mutant freak. I think Priscilla is linked to Seath because she has a tail and Seath has all those weird tentacles. Shanalotte was probably sired from a non-mutant freak dragon - no weird tail or fur on her at all.

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#17
I would like to know where the idea that the serpents are failed dragons comes from. Is it really just the description of the Gold Serpent Ring? At least in the JP version it says "As a half-finished dragon the serpent has become a symbol of the Undying, since they can swallow prey much larger than themselves whole, thus are known as exceedingly greedy beings.", nowhere does it say anything specific about the Primordial Serpents (JP script: World Serpents), nor does it explicitly say that serpents were actually a by-product of a dragon-evolution.

Also, I find it hard to believe Shanalotte to be an actual World Serpent, since the World Serpents are actually supposed to guide humans towards their path as the successors of the Dark, as said by Kaathe in DkS1 (translated from the JP script again...sorry):
...Once, when the fire began, the progenitor of you humans found a fourth soul, after the Ancient Lords.
The Soul of the Dark
The progenitor of you humans gained the Soul of the Dark and waited for the time after the fire
Before long, the fire would extinguish and only dark would remain
That is then, the Age of Dark, the Age of you humans
....but
King Gwyn, he feared the Dark
Fearing the end of fire, he became afraid of those who were worthy of being with the Dark
He feared the King of the Dark, who would be born from amongst the humans
He feared the underlying principles of the world
That is why he succeeded the flame, and lead his own sons in a quest to bind the humans
In order to make you humans forget everything, fall into a trance, so that the King of the Dark might not be born.
I am the World Serpent
I seek the right Age and the right King

Shanalotte is cast in a similar role, but she seems to want different things. She is, if anything, much closer to Kingseeker Frampt, who cast away his proper mission and befriended Gwyn. It would be an interesting twist though if it was revealed that she was working with the agents of the Dark all the time and we were lead around by our nose again.
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Nahztek

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#18
haguruma wrote:Shanalotte is cast in a similar role, but she seems to want different things. She is, if anything, much closer to Kingseeker Frampt, who cast away his proper mission and befriended Gwyn. It would be an interesting twist though if it was revealed that she was working with the agents of the Dark all the time and we were lead around by our nose again.



I have been wondering if this is the case.
there are some related matters that I talk about in this thread-

'Pieces Of Manus Plan...

by dn1nd'


it covers the possibility that the Throne of Want is actually the Throne of Dark and that the Giant Lord is a Dark Lord of a past cycle (reverting to stone like the rest of the world during the return of the fog/dark). it's kind of 'out there' as far as theories go, but there are some interesting things to consider.

( a note regarding the above: Vendrick could use the Ashen Mist Heart to go back to the Age of Ancients, just like we do in the Dragon's Memory)

it gives reason why the Throne Watcher/Defender (dark souls) are awaiting a Monarch and are said to have waited there since ancient times.

the smaller throne put inside a larger throne makes it seem like it used to be the Giant Lord's, and Want is so tied to Dark/Humanity.

the 'Monarch' being sealed inside of a small dark chamber where he decides which end he 'wants' to happen.
"what lies ahead, only you can see."

I also like relating Dark to water, and the darkness that the golems are standing in before the Throne of Want is actually pitch black water (little funny detail).

it's not a theory that I stand by, but I really like the implication of it (because it ties things together for me).

it gives me hope for the DLC giving an alternate ending where we use the power within the Crowns to fuel the Kiln in Lordran.
the Shrine of Winter seems like a good portal to use to go back to Firelink Shrine.


what I love about this theory, is that I know it will be shattered with the last DLC.
I don't expect any of this to happen, but it sure would be interesting.
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If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
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dn1nd

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#19
haguruma wrote:Shanalotte is cast in a similar role, but she seems to want different things. She is, if anything, much closer to Kingseeker Frampt, who cast away his proper mission and befriended Gwyn. It would be an interesting twist though if it was revealed that she was working with the agents of the Dark all the time and we were lead around by our nose again.



It would be interesting if the "dragon egg Shanalotte was born from was in fact Frampt's egg and Shanalotte was Frampt's child.

As for the idea that serpents are imperfect dragons, it come from the serpent rings.

The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey
even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony. This silver ring, engraved with
the serpent, rewards its wearer with additional souls for each kill.


With the Ancient Dragon being a construct. A Dragonoid Process and a plentitude of dragons in the Dragon Shrine, I'm of the mind that the Dragonoid Process yields Dragons.

Seathe attempted to recreate this process and yielded Snakemen and Piasca.

I'm of the opinion that Seathe is a really powerful or Advance Primordial Serpent and Frampt defected with Seathe.

I'm fairly certain Priscilla is either Velka or Gwynevere's Daughter with Seathe.

What also is of interest is there seems to be an Archtree process in the giants. Giving circumstantial evidence to the cycle and dragon mage theory.

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lordherpie

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#20
Gabers wrote:
“I was born of dragons, contrived by men.
By ones who would cozen Fate herself…
They are the ones who created me.
But they failed[/u]…"

Ok so I know many have said that Shanalotte could be a shard of Manus (which makes a lot of sense!) but the biggest issue I have with this theory is that, if she is a shard of Manus, how could she have been "created" and why would it make sense for her to have been "born of dragons?" That is not how we have seen the other shards materialize and for some reason I feel that her being a serpent feels more consistent with what we know of her creation.



I'm not sure if it is the explanation I would choose to believe, but I could provide an answer why she is a deliberate creation and at the same time be a shard of manus if you don't mind me speculating a bit:

The motivations for Kaathe and frampt are quite mysterious, and they do things that we don't understand. Like manipulating folks to resurrect manus. Maybe shattering manus into various shards is what they wanted to create Nashandra and her sisters. This way she could be conceived from the minds of the primordial snakes.

however the last sentence provides a hint that points more towards the theory DN1ND's mentions:
I was born of dragons, contrived by men
The ancient dragon is very likely a creation of Aldia (his experiments using Giant Souls). and if the Ancient Dragon is indeed the vessel that birthed her, than she would actually be contrived by men.

she mentions that the motives for her creation were to cheat fate, but that the ones who created her failed.
this is food for further speculation; if it were the snakes, what exactly did they wish to achieve, and why does shannalotte think they failed.
If she is actually born of a dragon or the ancient dragon; it would probably mean that Aldia failed at cheating fate.
Seeing he doesn't look to good these days (SotFS) it is very likely he had other plans for himself XD.

in any case;
I too always did think that the roles of Nashandra and shannalotte had similarities to the snakes in their manipulative role in DSII. So I don't mind any theories linking snakes to these individuals, or maybe even come up with a unification theory that links the snakes to Aldia and the creation of Nashandra.

Off topic: Funny other thing that I noticed, but not sure if means anything is that some names bear some similarities. With a bit of fantasy nashandra and shannalotte bear some similarity, but Dark Souls 3 mentiones another person with a much more apparent similarity to shannalotte. namely ocelotte who is supposedly also born of dragons.
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