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capn233

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#51

Depends on the defense rating of the target, and whether the rogue is dex based or cunning based.

The attack speed matters.  Fullsize - Shield w/ Precise Striking will only roll for hit every 2.09s (or ~0.48 times per second), whereas the Dagger-Dagger w/ Momentum is rolling every 0.7s (or ~1.4 times per second).

Hence for SnS Warrior to actually have similar stun rate, the dagger user needs to miss around 60% of the time assuming SnS never does.

Like I said though, if someone wants to run poison on SnS it is fine with me.  Not that SnS really even needs to stun Loghain or should expect it to proc very many times in the fight.


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#52

It is equivalent to setting dex to 0 IIRC.  Which means you still have base defense plus other defense bonuses, but you don't have defense bonus from dex.

http://dragonage.wik..._(Origins)#Stun

*shrug* I never made a claim about poison / paralysis runes on any weapon style other than DW.  The post you quoted doesn't exactly have elaborate strategies, I had thought SherryGold was saying Zevran was sword - shield for some reason.  But if you want to argue:

Dagger dagger (momentum) attacks almost 3x faster than fullsize weapon and shield (2.7-2.97 depending on Precise Striking), and about 2x faster than dagger shield.  Obviously that means that the usefulness of any on hit procs will be reduced, but if you want to run poison on SnS be my guest.  I don't tend to like to do this unless I also burn a swift salve.

SnS warrior was already covered by others.  Strength pumped SnS warrior is better against Loghain than dex pumped.

Well, you probably thought that because you read my post about confessing that I gave Zev a shield during my first play-through. :) I believe it is true that strength pumped S&S will do better against Loghain than dex pumped S&S. When I failed to get past Loghain in my first through, I went high strength with my S&S in the second playthrough and beat him. I haven't played S&S for a long while though. I just don't like S&S any more, even though S&S pc warden will be far superior to Alistair (sad, but no companion can match you when you are playing their class. Fade bonus and free talents plus all the best gear give them fat too much advantage.) I'm doing DW strength rogue warden in my current round and at level 12, he can open all the locks (with just 2 point investment in cunning with a view to unlock master stealth and with the help of some gear) and have enough strength to wear a massive armor. I mean which of your companion warrior or rogue can do that?


#53

Well, you probably thought that because you read my post about confessing that I gave Zev a shield during my first play-through. :) I believe it is true that strength pumped S&S will do better against Loghain than dex pumped S&S. When I failed to get past Loghain in my first through, I went high strength with my S&S in the second playthrough and beat him. I haven't played S&S for a long while though. I just don't like S&S any more, even though S&S pc warden will be far superior to Alistair (sad, but no companion can match you when you are playing their class. Fade bonus and free talents plus all the best gear give them fat too much advantage.) I'm doing DW strength rogue warden in my current round and at level 12, he can open all the locks (with just 2 point investment in cunning with a view to unlock master stealth and with the help of some gear) and have enough strength to wear a massive armor. I mean which of your companion warrior or rogue can do that?

I would bet there isn't that much difference in damage output between High Dex dagger/High Strength Sword for SnS warrior, and the Dexxer would have much better defense, giving him the edge.  You probably just went in with a better setup the second time around.

The only reasons I have Alistair setup for Strength, is sentimental. He always uses all of Cailan's gear, and Meric's sword. Plus there aren't that many great daggers, and an abundance of nice swords, someone should use at least one of them.

Once you go DW rogue for your main it is really hard to play any other melee option for your main IMO.  DW is arguably the best melee option, and rogues don't really suffer a combat disadvantage to warriors, so why play a warrior when I can fight as good as one, using the best combat style and have a ton of extra utility.  Stealth in this game is pretty much perfect, you can simply destroy enemy plans by walking up to the mage, protected behind a host of minions, and killing him before his minions can react. The minions you can pretty much then take in a straight up brawl after that, because without magic, they can barely touch you.

DW rogues FTW.


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capn233

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:44 pm
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#54

I would bet there isn't that much difference in damage output between High Dex dagger/High Strength Sword for SnS warrior, and the Dexxer would have much better defense, giving him the edge.  You probably just went in with a better setup the second time around.

Dex dagger - shield does noticeably less damage for all shield attacks, and also does less auto attack dps unless you stack a lot of on-hit effects, like berserker, three gm runes and mage weapon enchant.

Shield attacks will be more likely to be resisted as well (checked v str), although how much this matters depends on specific tactics and rank.  I imagine Loghain would pass if running low str build, which is what OP described using pummel with Alistair.


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#55

You sure about stun penalty is -1000 dex? I am not sure if the game applies that. I've seen Zevran being stunned and still enemies can't land a hit on him towards the end and my poor rogue sometimes missed while the enemy was stunned at the earlier stage of the game (level 7 or 8)? I've also noticed at level 9 or 10, my rogue was missing when the enemy was paralyzed and he was flanking. Sure the enemy in question was elite but still...

Yes, I wonder if that is buggy like everything else in Dragon Age.

In this exact fight, Alistair triggered paralyze rune on Loghain, and then missed more than half his attacks, while Loghain was paralyzed.

It looks like High attack is important even if he is stunned.

Also: Didn't realize the Str benefit to shield offense, so Str may be the way to go in that case.


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capn233

Crystal Cave
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#56

Dex penalty definitely works against player, afaik it seems to work against enemies (anecdotally, if someone had more thorough test then hopefully they will post).

Took a look at my rogue last night when he was stunned, screen showed 51 defense, which is base rogue defense and +1 from studded leather armor set.  Base warrior defense is 45, and for mages it is 40.  Loghain runs Rally so he should be getting +10 from that, and then player may be suffering from -10 attack from War Cry.

I would agree that low attack can be problematic against Loghain.  FWIW I loaded up a save I had w/ Leliana (level 20) transitioned to cunning dagger rogue (transitioned not respec'd, so still talents wasted in archery) and she had 114 attack, and that was enough to auto-attack to victory w/ paralyze runes and concentrated deathroot.  Defense was 92 with wade's boots and 98 with Bard's although in this particular test it didn't matter.  If she goes with bad gear the fight does get progressively more difficult, especially because she did not have enough talent points for Riposte. Warden should be in better shape with more attribute points, and potentially tomes for points.

Point is mainly just that as you move away from any "min-maxed" build it will get harder, or if you aren't running end game gear it gets harder still (obvious).

I agree that if dex tank, should run dagger.  I build Alistair this way sometimes, but I don't usually make him solo anything.


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