Blood Gems in Bloodborne come in a variety of different shapes and effects. This guide will help you on your path to getting exactly what you’re looking for!
Gems Come in 5 Different Shapes: Radial, Triangular, Waning, Circular, and Droplet.
- Radial Gems can be found in Pthumeru Dungeons and are the most common gem in the game.
- Triangular Gems can be found in Isz Dungeons.
- Waning Gems can be found in Loran Dungeons.
- Circular Gems (typically Pulsing, Warm, or Bloodtinge Gems) only drop from certain enemies in the game, including Bloodlickers and Ritekeepers.
- Droplet Gems are a rare gem type that can fit into any slot, no matter the shape. Besides the ones you find as loot, the only Droplet Gems that drop from enemies are from the Winter Lanterns in the Nightmare Frontier and Nightmare of Mensis. Unless the DLC changes this, Droplet Gems are weaker than the other Gem types, but are a good intermediate gem to use until you can farm higher level Gems.
Notes:
• There is about a 2% chance for any gem dropped by an enemy to be an abnormal shape from the one that enemy usually drops (ex. Isz Watchers dropping a Waning gem).
• Hunter NPC’s, drop the same gem shape regardless of the Dungeon they reside in! Farm the Bone Ash Hunters for Radial, The Cainhurst Hunters for Triangular, and the Logarius Wheel or Beast Claw Hunters for Waning gems.
• The Loran Silverbeast has almost the exact same drop list as the Hunters, but can drop up to rank 19 gems (waning, barring abnormal shape drops) while the Hunters only drop up to rank 18.
Basic Primary Effects (Some can also be found as Secondary Effects):
- Tempering: Boosts all Physical AR by a %, including Blood ATK.
- Adept Blunt: Boosts Blunt AR by a %. Does not boost visceral attack damage.
- Adept Thrust: Boosts Thrust AR by a %, and visceral damage (unlike Blunt).
- Striking: Boosts total AR on Charged attacks by a %.
- Fool’s(tempering): Boosts Physical AR by a % AT FULL HP.
- Fool’s(nourishing): Boosts total AR by a % AT FULL HP.
- Poorman’s(tempering): Boosts Physical AR by a % AT LOW HP.
- Poorman’s(nourishing): Boosts total AR by a % AT LOW HP.
- Beasthunter: Boosts total AR by a % vs. Beasts.
- Kinhunter: Boosts total AR by a % vs. Kin.
- Nourishing: Boosts total AR by a %, and visceral damage.
- Dirty: Adds Rapid Poison effect. After enough Poison buildup, the effect will activate, dealing 100 + 10% of your enemy’s max HP in damage. This type of Gem is weak compared to damage gems due to the numerous hits required to inflict it.
- Murky: Adds Slow Poison effect. After enough poison buildup, the effect will activate, causing your enemy to slowly lose HP over a short period of time. This type of Gem is most useful in PvP, but requires several hits to inflict it and has very low damage per second.
- Bloodtinge: Boosts Blood AR by a %. This gem type is used for guns and the Chikage’s transformed mode. Does not affect Visceral damage.
- Heavy: Boosts Strength scaling with a Flat % of your base AR, relative to the Strength stat. The effects of this Gem are weak compared to the % Gems. See explanation in the Gem Formula section of this guide.
- Sharp: Boosts Skill scaling by a Flat % of your base AR, relative to the Skill stat. The effects of this Gem are weak compared to the % Gems. See explanation in the Gem Formula section of this guide.
- Warm: Boosts Bloodtinge scaling by a Flat % of your base AR, relative to the Bloodtinge stat (only applies to weapons with inherent Blood AR). The effects of this gem are weak compared to the % Gems. See explanation in the Gem Formula section of this guide.
- Cold: Boosts Arcane scaling by a Flat % of your base AR, relative to the arcane stat. This effect ONLY boosts Elemental scaling, so it is useless on any weapon without a tied element. The effects of this Gem are weak compared to the % Gems. See explanation in the Gem Formula section of this guide.
- Fire: Boosts Fire AR by a % Changes the damage type of a purely Physical weapon to Fire and causes it to scale with your Arcane stat.
- Bolt: Boosts Bolt AR by a %. Changes the damage type of a purely Physical weapon to Bolt, and causes it to scale with your Arcane stat.
- Arcane: Boosts Arcane AR by a %. Changes the damage type of a purely Physical weapon to Arcane, and causes it to scale with your Arcane stat.
- Pulsing: Causes your character to regenerate HP over time. These gems are useful for passive regeneration on builds that don’t have powerful guns.
- Odd Tempering: Adds a flat amount of Physical AR (not affected by Attack Modifiers).
- Odd Fire: Adds a flat amount of Fire AR (not affected by Attack Modifiers).
- Odd Bolt: Adds a flat amount of Bolt AR (not affected by Attack Modifiers).
- Odd Arcane: Adds a flat amount of Arcane AR (not affected by Attack Modifiers).
- Radiant: Reduces your Stamina Cost by a %. One of the least useful Primary Gem effects, but is a useful Secondary effect for high-stamina-usage weapons.
Secondary Effects That Cannot be found as Primary Effects:
- Finestrike: Boosts your AR on attacks vs. Open Foes by a %. By “open”, the game means a target that is in the process of attacking, dashing, or dodging. Perhaps the most useful and powerful secondary effect for PvP Gems. Does not affect Visceral damage.
- Odd Bloodtinge: Adds a Flat amount of Blood AR (not affected by Attack Modifiers). Does not affect weapons without inherent Blood AR.
- Dense: Increases your weapon’s Durability.
- Fatal: Increases your Rally Potential. This is the time period in which you can earn HP back by attacking enemies with Melee.
Cursed Gems are the best you can get, but they come at a cost:
- -ATK: Reduces total AR by a percentage. Gems with this Curse are almost useless.
- -ATK vs Beasts: Reduces total AR against Beasts by a percentage. Doesn’t affect damage against other players.
- -ATK vs Kin: Reduces total AR against Kin by a percentage. Doesn’t affect damage against other players.
- +Stamina cost: Increases Stamina Costs of your weapon by a percentage. One of the least detrimental Curses.
- -Weapon Durability: Causes your weapon to lose Durability faster.
- HP gradually depletes: Reduces your HP over time.
How do Gem Effects Stack?
Effects such as Odd Tempering, Slow Poison, Rapid Poison, and scaling from Heavy/Sharp/Cold/Warm Gems add together. Matching % effects multiply together. Here’s a little math to show how:
- One 10% Tempering gem multiplies your gem-less physical AR by 110%, or 1.1.
- Two 10% Tempering gems on the same weapon = 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21
Because of this, stacking the same effects is most beneficial, but these effects don’t always have to be identical. If you were to have a 10% Arcane gem with +10% ATK up vs. open foes, your AR would be 1.1 times your gem-less Arcane AR on normal hits, and 1.21 times your total gem-less AR on attacks vs. open foes (not including the inherent 20% open hit bonus). While gems with pure effects (such as those given by the Scurrying Beasts and the Merciless Watchers) will reliably give you the effect in every applicable situation, they will not always be the most powerful gems.
Let’s compare a 32.6% Blunt Gem from the Watchers and a 28.7% Blunt Gem with +5.6% ATK vs. Open Foes from the Undead Giant. The Watchers’ Gem gives you a constant effect of 1.326 times your Blunt AR. On the other hand, the gem from the Undead Giant only gives you a constant effect of 1.287 times your AR. Neverthless, it has the potential to multiply your Blunt AR by 1.359, and any other inherent Elemental AR on your weapon by 1.056, on open hits. This ideally shows us why the Finestrike secondary effect is perfect for mixed-AR weapons. Looking at the way gems stack, we can reason that the AR difference between these gems is amplified with each additional synergetic effect, as shown below:
- 3 Merciless Watchers 32.6% Blunt gems = 1.326^3 = 2.33
- 3 Undead Giant 28.7% Blunt + 5.6% ATK up vs open foes = (1.287 x 1.056)^3 = 2.51 on attacks vs. open foes
Even though the ATK vs. Open Foes effect was 5.6%, the total Physical AR gained from 3 of this effect is 18%. Simultaneously, you get that 18% for any Elemental AR as well.
Do other effects like Rally Potential, Beast/Kinhunter, or Curses stack like this? Yes, so be wary of this and allocate your gems accordingly. Stacking the same curses, such as increased stamina cost, on the same weapon can become problematic if you’re not careful.
The Gem Multiplier Formula:
- [(Gem Effect A%/100)+1] • [(Gem Effect B%/100)+1] . . . = Gem Effect Multiplier
If you have multiple Gems with the same effect(s), you can use exponents to simplify the Formula accordingly:
- [(Gem Effect A%/100)+1]^n[(Gem Effect B%/100)+1] ^m . . . = Gem Effect Multiplier
Where n represents the number of identical effects for Effect A, and m represents the number of identical effects for effect B. These formulas will only tell you statistical AR, and will not account for any Attack Multipliers such as those given by your weapon’s moveset or by counterhits (aka. attacks vs. open foes).
To ensure accuracy in your calculations, be sure to apply the Formula for each applicable Damage type on your weapon. If a Gem has any +ATK effects, those effects will apply to all attributes on your weapon. This simply means that +ATK on the Burial Blade would be applied to both the Physical and the Arcane AR. On the Stake Driver, +ATK would only affect the primary damage attribute of its respective Element or all Physical attributes (as applicable). Blunt and Thrust AR boosts only affect their respective attribute and have no impact on any other AR type. Flat AR increases from Odd gem effects must be made after all % effects are taken into consideration.
Scaling Gems are similar to % effects, but have some major flaws: they don’t reach their full potential until you hit 99 in the scaling stat that they depend on; they are additive rather than multiplicative; and they only multiply part of your AR.
- One +27.2 scaling Gem = 1.272 times your base AR + your Gemless scaling AR at 99 in the scaling stat of your gem
- Two +27.2 scaling Gems = 1.544 times your base AR + your Gemless scaling AR at 99 in the scaling stat of your gems
Here’s an example:
The Logarius Wheel with 99 Strength has 200 base Physical AR and 220 scaling Physical AR…
- With 1 scaling Gem = (1.272 x 200) +220 = 474.4 AR
- With 2 scaling Gems = (1.544 x 200) +220 = 528.8 AR
By comparison, % Gems multiply all AR in their respective category, regardless of your stats.
- With 1 percent Gem = 1.272 x 420 = 534.2 AR
- With 2 percent Gems = 1.272^2 x 420 = 679.6 AR
As you can see, one % Gem outranks 2 scaling gems. The difference between them only increases when you have less than 99 in your scaling stat. Furthermore, scaling gems only affect 1 stat’s scaling, whereas % gems multiply AR regardless of scaling. For this reason, scaling gems are almost completely useless.
Useful Gem Multipliers:
- Three 5.6% effects = 1.178 times AR for your respective Damage type
- Three 12.6% effects = 1.428 times AR for your respective Damage type
- Three 21% effects = 1.772 times AR for your respective Damage type
- Three 23.1% effects =1.865 times AR for your respective Damage type
- Three 27.2% effects = 2.058 times AR for your respective Damage type
- Three 32.6% effects = 2.33 times AR for your respective Damage type (or all AR’s if Beast/Kinhunter)
- Three 36.3% effects = 2.53 times AR for your respective Damage type
So, now that we have all of the Shapes, Effects, and the Gem Multiplier Formula laid out, what Gems do I want to use? It entirely depends on your stats and the weapons you want to use.
Pure Physical Builds (Strength, Skill, or Strength and Skill): These builds are the easiest to farm for and use the most basic Gems. Tempering is your best bet here. Adept gems can be used to strategically boost the damage of specific attacks that you use most often, such as Thrust for Reiterpallasch and Blunt for the Logarius Wheel. Other gem types can be used, but they will often result in severe limitation of your effectiveness.
Bloodtinge Builds: These builds can use the both Tempering and Bloodtinge Gems to great effect. Tempering covers Blood Attack – as well as Slash, Thrust, and Blunt – because it is considered a Physical attribute. Bloodtinge gems are a little more powerful than Tempering for increasing Blood AR, such as on the Chikage’s transformed state, but greatly limit your style of play.
Arcane Builds: These builds use different Gems from the other 2 build types listed. Elemental Gems allow you to use your Arcane stat scaling on otherwise purely Physical weapons. Nourishing Gems can be used to supplement purely Elemental weapons since Elemental Gems are difficult to farm for compared to the other Gem types. They also help boost the weak Viscerals that Arcane builds often suffer from, and work well for boosting the AR on split-damage weapons such as the Logarius Wheel and Tonitrus. This build type can also use Beasthunter and Kinhunter gems better than any other build because they function in the exact same manner as Nourishing Gems against their respective targets, making their use on split-AR weapons quite effective. The key here is exploiting weaknesses, so bear that in mind when you choose your gems. For more information on this build type, please refer to the Pure Souls Arcane Guide.
Where do I get these Gems? The Chalice Dungeons, of course!
Before getting into glyphs and enemies for gem farming, a word of caution: Eye Runes have been statistically proven to NOT improve the quality of gem drops. Their only use in farming is making an enemy with less than 100% total drop rate drop their items and gems more often. Bosses and some enemies, such as the Labyrinth Madmen and Scourge Beasts have a 100% drop rate of SOMETHING from their drop list, so Eye Runes won’t help. NPC Hunters and Lost Child of Antiquity (Gargoyles), on the other hand, have a low overall drop rate that greatly improves with high discovery.
Tempering:
- Common drop from The Merciless Watchers (up to +27.2% Physical with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll ag77rinb or pwmf22gu; and RFC Isz 5pwujscd.
- Common Drop from The Labyrinth Madmen (up to +21% with a strong secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu; uncommon in RFC Loran Glyph 25dzpyg3.
- Guaranteed drop from the Bloodletting Beast (up to +24.8% Physical ATK with a random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll 42t2cns6 Layer 3.
Adept:
- Guaranteed drop from the Undead Giant (up to +28.7% Thrust/Blunt with a random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll 28nt7p5z; RFC Isz u37b5h48; RFC Lower Loranfmkivi7n Layer 2.
- Uncommon drop from The Merciless Watchers (up to +32.6% Thrust/Blunt with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll ag77rinb or pwmf22gu; and RFC Isz 5pwujscd.
- Rare drop from the Labyrinth Madmen (up to +24.3% Thrust/Blunt with a strong secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu; and RFC Lower Loran 25dzpyg3
Nourishing:
- Guaranteed drop from Amygdala (up to +21.5% ATK with a random secondary effect) in RFC Isz ghgvhb2d; and RFC Lower Loran ske4igwv.
- Guaranteed drop from Rom the Vacuous Spider (up to +19.5% ATK with a random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll v5v5fpsd.
- Rare drop from the Cainhurst Gargoyles (up to +19.3% ATK with a random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu; (Please note that these gems become common with high discovery and are very fast and easy to farm, making the farming of Rom almost obsolete).
Beasthunter/Kinhunter:
- Rare drop from the Cramped Caskets (up to +27.7% ATK vs Beasts/Kin with a random secondary effect) in Layer 3 (pre-area) of RFC Ihyll exdy2m2t (Please note these become common drops with high discovery; use Eye Runes).
- Rare drop from the Hunter NPC’s (up to +27.7% ATK vs Beasts/Kin with a random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran 25dzpyg3.
Bloodtinge:
- Common drop from the Shotgun Merciless Watcher (Circle Gem up to +31.5% Blood ATK with no secondary effect) in the first pre-area of FC Ihyll e99tdh9f.
- Common drop from the Bloodstarved Beast (+28.7% Blood ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran jvz8469j.
- Uncommon drop from the Ritekeepers (aka Fire Witches; sometimes they drop Radial gems) in RFC Ihyll v5v5fpsd. Please see this video for farming the Witches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5A-WJY9f0
Circular Bloodtinge Gems can also be farmed from Bloodlickers found in the dungeons. There is a small chance of them dropping Bloodtinge Gems in the corresponding shapes: Triangular (Isz), Radial (Pthumeru), and Waning (Loran). To get a Bloodlicker to spawn, simply use a visceral attack or backstab in a Chalice Dungeon. Only certain enemies will yield you a Bloodlicker, and only the first Visceral/Backstab on an enemy will be the spawning location of a Bloodlicker. Here is a list of them…
- Merciless Watchers (all types, excluding the Fat-Rolling & Cleaver Watchers)
- Labyrinth Madman (all types)
- Labyrinth Warrior (all types)
- Watcher’s Gravedigger (all types)
Once you Visceral or Backstab the enemy, leave the area (not the dungeon itself). The Bloodlickers will only appear after you have traveled far enough away or enter another area or layer. After traveling the required distance, come back to farm the bloodlickers that have spawned. Use Eye Runes to boost your Gem drop rate. Please see the following link for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LABylytuUnA
Fire:
- Rare drop from the Merciless Watchers (up to +27.2% Fire ATK with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu or ag77rinb; Uncommon drop in RFC Isz 5pwujscd.
- Guaranteed drop from the Watchdog of the Old Lords (up to +24.8% Fire ATK with a random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll 7vvid666; RFC Lower Loran 758v8txa.
- Common drop from the Hunter NPC’s (up to +23.1% Fire ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran 56428adr or 25dzypyg3.
- Common drop from the Labyrinth Madman (up to +21% Fire ATK with a strong secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran 25dzpyg3; rare drop in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu.
Bolt:
- Rare drop from the Merciless Watchers (up to +27.2% Bolt ATK with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu or ag77rinb; Uncommon drop in RFC Isz 5pwujscd.
- Guaranteed drop from Abhorrent Beast (up to +22.5% Bolt ATK with doubled secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran r6t2n466.
- Guaranteed drop from Loran Darkbeast (up to +24.8% Bolt ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran azsysju9.
- Common drop from Hunter NPC’s (up to +23.1% Bolt ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran 56428adr or 25dzypyg3.
- Common drop from the Labyrinth Madman (up to +21% Bolt ATK with a strong secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran; Rare drop in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu
Arcane:
- Rare drop from the Merciless Watchers (up to +27.2% Arcane ATK with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu or ag77rinb; uncommon drop in RFC Isz 5pwujscd or ghgvhb2d.
- Guaranteed drop from Ebrietas (up to +24.8% Arcane ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Isz e2ts7vub.
- Rare drop from the Hunter NPC (up to +23.1% Arcane ATK with random secondary effect) in RFC Isz cb7jig9p.
Odd Arcane:
- Common drop from the mob version of the Brainsucker (up to +67.5 Arcane ATK with random primary effect) in RFC Ihyll ba362b97.
- Guaranteed drop from the Boss version of the Brainsucker (up to +72.5 Arcane ATK with a random primary effect) in RFC Isz huy83p9r.
Pulsing:
- Uncommon drop from the Walking Ritekeeper (Circle Gem; up to +5 HP regeneration with no secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu. Use Eye Runes to improve drop rate.
- Rare drop from various enemies throughout the Chalice Dungeons, including the Scurrying Beasts, Patient Beasts, Hunter NPC’s, Loran Silverbeast, Labyrinth Madmen, and Beast-Possessed Soul (up to +5 HP regeneration).
Murky:
- Common drop from specific enemies in Poison Dungeons, such the Poison Dog (up to +14 slow poison) in Layer 1 of RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu.
- Rare drop from the Hunter NPC’s (up to +15.4 slow poison) in RFC Lower Loran 25dzpyg3 Layer 1.
- Rare drop from the Loran Silverbeast Boss (up to +15.9 Poison effect) in RFC Loran enjids45 or 25dzpyg3.
Dirty:
- Common drop from the Scorpions (up to +11.7 Rapid Poison with random secondary effect) in RFC Ihyll pwmf22gu Layer 3.
- RARE drop from the Hunter NPC’s (up to +18.4 Rapid Poison with random secondary effect) in RFC Lower Loran 25dzpyg3 Layer 1.
- Rare drop from the Loran Silverbeast Boss (up to +19.1 Rapid Poison effect) in RFC Loran enjids45 or 25dzpyg3.
For additional information on finding the BEST GEMS in the game, please refer to the Merciless Watchers Drop List and Labyrinth Madmen Drop List.
Credit for the Glyphs goes to ALL of the kind souls who shared them publicly and compiled them. Without their work, this guide would have been severely limited. Thanks also to EMonaghan (TurquoiseWaters) for her assistance in creating this Guide.
On a final note, once in a Blood Moon you get a unique novelty that should not even exist. When this happens, fret not, and consider yourself fortunate that you saw something so rare.
Circular Bolt Blood Gem from the Bone Ash Hunter NPC in RFC Lower Ailing Loran 25dzpyg3.
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46 responses to “Everything You Need to Know About Blood Gems”
Gooood. S scaling arcane Kirkmemer, here I come…
Nah, wasn’t a bug. They implemented it with a patch and kept it this way. The only thing that’s ‘bugged’ is that it only affected the final tier version of these gems…
Sorry to necro, no idea if Pure or Slim still play (doubt it) but was the scaling on Abyssal Cold/Heavy gems a bug? I do not recall if it was ever confirmed as such.
fire only scales with arc, never with skl or str
If you find some, you can use gems that have % on physical and flat (+) fire damage addon as secondary.
But this wont work good, because:
It’s split damage
the phys % will be low, much lower than a pure phys % without any flat fire damage addon as secondary.
User firepaper if you don’t intend to lvl arc.
Very nice guide, thank you for the tremendous work.
Just one question, cause I was trying to make a secondary weapon as a “fire” weapon, so I did add all the fire type gems I could find but that does mean that my str & skl scalling goes down the drain.
Isn’t possible to get a weapon still scale with skl or str + the fire damage?
sorry if this question is rather…noob-ish 🙂 I know the lore very well but the dungeon part I’m still working on it 🙂
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If you want a tip, I’ve found that sinister dungeons seem to have an unusually high amount of non-gem treasures. Ritual materials, runes, weapons, chests and loot bodies all over the place… I once had a glyph with 50 ritual blood (5)s and eight sarcophagus chests through the whole dungeon, I shit you not. And arcane haze is so easy to make once you get the Haze Extractor.
Those ought to have the runes and weapons you’re looking for. Simply set the dungeon to Shared -> Closed to allow glyph access to it while still blocking out SRRC invaders.
We’re frequently making new glyphs and will gladly share them. We have one for a layer 1 Blood rock in Pthum and a Layer 2(?) Rock in Isz, as well as a few runes and weapons.
I just wanted to mention that I’ve been added as an editor for The Bloodborne Sheets, so I’ve been combing through your guide and many other sources to fill out the gem section of the Sheets.
If there are any great glyphs for gems missing from the Sheets, please let me know.
Next week I hope to go through the Rune/Weapon sections and do some cleanup there. The ideal situation would be to have glyphs with no offerings for every single rune/weapon so people could get them before making an FRC, but that’s probably a pipe dream on my part.
It’s my hope that I can help make that sheet the most complete one, since many others apart from your guide are really showing their age.
This guide has not been updated yet, but here is the new information that we have obtained regarding gems:
Heavy and Cold gems, from the Headless Bloodletting Beast and Pthumerian Elder (respectively) have received a massive buff that was likely unintentional and will probably be patched out. Until then, this presents as many opportunities as problems.
Pro’s:
-Buffed Strength and Arcane builds dramatically for a fair selection of weapons
-Gave incentive to farm for these particular gems, when none existed before patch 1.07
Con’s:
-These gems are more effective on weapons with poor scaling because there is a maximum amount of scaling that can be attained on weapons. For this reason, lesser-scaling weapons – such as the Saw Cleaver and Hunter’s Axe – are proportionally more powerful than they were before and are much closer in damage to the heavy-hitting weapons with higher scaling (such as the Kirkhammer and Logarius Wheel)
Heavy Abyssal Blood Gem
+24.8 Strength Scaling (+65 Strength effective scaling)
exdy2m2t (the same glyph we used in our guide to farm Hunter gems)
Cold Abyssal Blood Gem
+22.5 Arcane Scaling (+65 Arcane effective scaling)
kkvk8gsj
Sljm8D: Thank you for the calculations. Agreed, scaling gems are very unlikely intended to be as good as they currently are. 65 scaling is substantial, especially on weapons with poor scaling, such as the Beast Cutter, Claws, etc. We can almost certainly see a patch coming to fix these gems, as well as any other issues brought on by 1.07 and the DLC. We’ll be doing some extensive testing with these gems to see what the ideal setups will be for specific conditions. If Cold gems don’t have a cap, they may make certain weapons become incredibly destructive.
I seriously doubt it’s intended for a 22.5 scaling bonus to give you 65. Worth noting that the Abyssal Heavy I have which says 24.8 scaling bonus also gives 65. They have different displayed values but the same actual value.
They still stack additively, as shown by your screenshot.
So the fact is — and this is something I hope Pure_Souls will recognize — there’s actually no change at all to how Scaling gems are calculated, it’s just that the Abyssal versions are giving waaaay more than they’re supposed to be.
Here’s the math:
(.55 base scaling +.65 gem scaling +.65 gem scaling) * .92653 from 75 Arc = 1.714085 scaling mult
(1.714085 * 180 base AR) + 180 base AR = 488.53449
(488.53449 * 1.21 Fire gem) + 31.5 Flat Fire = 622.6267329 total AR
622.6267329 – 180 base AR = 442.6267329
Shown AR 180 +443
As you can see, they’re doing the same thing they’ve always done: adding a flat amount to the Scaling value of the weapon. But due to this bug, they’re adding a lot more than they say they are.
I was probably a little vague in my post, sry for that. 1st of all, the only thing I was talking about are the so called “Cold Abyssal Gems”, as these are the only ones where I did some testing and calculations, and tbh honest I don’t have a build with any good heavy abyssals atm, lol…. The important thing is the Attribute Scaling Ratio or if we look at the effects of the Cold Abyssals each weapon’s Arcane Ratio.
Please take the time to have a look at the screenshot of the post I linked in my previous answer. The total elemental AR of the Saw Cleaver at 75 ARC and with 2 Cold Abyssals is actually 623 with 180 as base AR and a bonus of 443. As dimishing returns for weapon AR after 50 still exist, the only way to explain these numbers and the big difference to %gems is the circumstance that effects of Cold Abyssals stack…. Right now there’s no scaling cap for Cold Abyssals, combining 2 with a high ARC stat is very effective and tbh that’s something that seems like a glitch to me but it may also be intended as a means of buffing ARC builds.
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Weapons seem to have a scaling cap, so stacking 2 scaling gems is relatively ineffective. Just one abyssal takes your weapon from 0 to B scaling. For this reason, stacking 2 scaling gems can be quite inefficient. On the Wheel, for example, a Cold gem works great, taking the arcane scaling from C to S. But swapping a Heavy gem for a 31.5% Blunt gem results in a slight AR drop (but increases your viscerals quite a bit). Even so, if you have a weapon such as Ludwig’s and swap an elemental gem for a cold gem, you’re going to gain quite a bit of AR. It really just depends on the scaling stat you’re working off of and your current gems.
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Can confirm the thing with the .65 scaling, but only for Cold Abyssals. Did some testing and calculations myself and it seems that 22.5 Cold Abyssal add a flat .65 bonus to your weapon’s base Arcane Ratio.
Another weird thing is that the effects of the Cold Abyssals seem to stack to some degree if you equip 2 of them, as you can see on the 3rd screenshot of this post
No idea if this is was intended or if someone just was confused and mixed up some numbers, but right now you can enjoy a Wheel with a S arcane scaling and something like a 1.1 Arcane Ratio.
We’re working on the new gems now. There’s a lot of new material to cover.
The DLC loot gems do not seem to be following the normal rules of gems, nor do the Abyssal scaling gems. We believe the latter gems were unintentionally buffed with the patch. While this does bring more balance to Arcane and Pure Strength builds relative to pre-patch setups, it does seem to be problematic by making some weapons that are considered “OP” even more so. If these gems still follow the same formula of adding a percentage of your base AR back on to your weapon, then the scaling has been drastically increased. These gems seem to be doing what they were originally designed to do, but to a much greater degree than was probably intended.
Because this is likely a glitch, there may be a patch in the near future to bring them back down to normal levels, as well as fix any additional bugs that occurred in the last patch (such as the black loading screen for summons/invasions as a Confederate).
Regardless, there is still much work to be done to maintain the accuracy of the guide
Any glyphs for Isz with the “Pthumerian Elder” who uses Descendant’s sickles and drop pool on Layer 3? I’ve seen him on Layer 1/2 and he drops the same hybrid Tempering gems as Headed BLB. Would love to get some Triangle Abyssals of these…
Also, it looks like the calculation for Sharp gems is not changed, they still add a flat amount to the Scaling multiplier. So whatever’s going on with those Heavy/Cold gems, it doesn’t look intended.
Worth noting that the Flat Physical values for these Abyssal gems were buffed (+15 max), while non-Abyssal sources do not have the increased values. It’s possible the Scaling bonus issues are an unintended result of this buff. Heavy/Cold gems are still adding to Scaling in the same way they used to (as evidenced by the letter grade), but they’re now adding quite a lot more than before, more than double.
23.9 Heavy are adding about .5 Scaling, 24.8 are adding about .65 Scaling. I don’t have any Cold gems, but you get the picture.
Slight spoiler warning for DLC gems, but
that “secondary effects that cannot be found as primary effects” bit will need to be changed when the DLC drops. They found primary finestrike gems and one other.
Just so you’re prepared on what to modify.
No, from the look of things, scaling gems can only ever equal the percent gems at best. I compared the stats at 86 in the scaling stat and they were close, but still favoring the percent gem.
Are there any breakpoints? Like, above 75 in a stat it would be better to use scaling gems instead of percentage gems?
No AR formula for scaling gems yet, however I have concluded that scaling gems are still inferior to percent gems. Although the formula in our guide does not apply anymore, the advice regarding scaling gems is still sound.
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I wasn’t trying to be insulting, nor was I insulted. Your question actually made me think about whether the patch changed scaling gems, which I am currently working on solving now. I can’t say anything definite because the values are all over the place, but scaling gems are closer to percent gems than before. They still add together rather than multiply, so I don’t imagine they will ever be better than percent gems. Still working out the details, but they made a pretty drastic change to the AR formula for them. I understand you are trying to help and we greatly appreciate that. It’s hard to express emotion or tone via text, so I apologize if I myself came off as offensive to you
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I wasn’t trying to start an argument, I just didn’t think that section of the guide was explaining the mechanics, even if the results are correct. I guess it’s a difference between our minds, I prefer to arrange formulae in a way that shows the process over giving the simplified (and still correct) version that might appear more arcane. I’m really sorry if I came off like a douche, I’m just trying to help.
In any case the point is moot, because what the butts is going on with Scaling gems now? D:
They changed the way scaling gems work. I just checked and the math I did shows that it no longer depends solely on base AR.
Fire Saw Cleaver on a 50A build:
27.2% fire: 335AR (180+155)
add a 21 arc scaling gem: gains 69AR
69/180 = 0.38333
69/335 = 0.20597
EDIT: they completely changed the way scaling gems work. Saw Cleaver is only gaining 5 less AR than Ludwig’s. The change does not seem as simple as accounting for total AR with a similar formula to the one we used. We’ll do our best to get to the bottom of this ASAP.
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Sorry about that , We may need to be more specific instead of using shortcuts. RFC = Rotted, Fetid, Cursed. Rites that can be added to a root dungeon.
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I ran through your calculations and we seem to be getting the same result through different methods. Here is the method that was used for the guide:
Weapon AR gained/Original Weapon base AR = Scaling Gem Percentage
Your example with the Wheel was a 23.9 str scaling gem at 93 str, so I will use that to show you how our methods differ while obtaining the same result:
No-gems wheel = 200+215 phys
23.9 scaling wheel = 200+263 phys
AR gained: 48
48/200 = 0.24 <- almost perfectly matches your gem (hidden fractional AR can account for this). Rearrange the formula I used above and you get:
Weapon Base AR * Scaling Gem Percentage = Weapon AR gained
Total AR with your scaling gem = Weapon AR gained + Original Weapon AR = Scaling Gem Percentage * Weapon Base AR + Original Weapon AR
So you see, the guide actually wasn’t wrong. It included the extra steps needed to get total AR from your gem by adding the original scaling back in. You are correct in the fact that the scaling factor increases, however we are yielding the same results.
Q.E.D.
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