Discuss the latest Dark Souls Title!
Reply  
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

Don't Panic

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 229.04
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16678
Reputation: 571
Wiki Edits: 459
#1
The following is an excerpt of a blog article.  Read Full Article

Since the first time he jumped down from the balcony and into our hearts, very few Dark Souls characters have captured the imagination of fans like Ornstein has.  If for some reason you're unaware, Ornstein and his pal Smough guarded the Cathedral and Chamber of the Princess in the first Dark Souls game.  And then we killed them of course.  It's the only way to get the Lordvessel and reach the first flame. Along came Dark Souls 3 with the suggestion that perhaps Ornstein left the cathedral to search for the Nameless King.  That's pretty impressive for a corpse.  And poor lil' ...
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Fallenangel700

Obsessed
Commander

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:55 pm
Location: Hunting Monsters.
Souls: 4,892.50
Posts: 666
Reputation: 34
Wiki Edits: 92
#2
This makes a lot of sense. It also explains (sort of) the Dragonslayer in DS2. (if we're considering that canon)
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

Don't Panic

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 229.04
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16678
Reputation: 571
Wiki Edits: 459
#3
Yeah, I have an even crazier guess involving Heide's and that Notstein. But the premise is the same regarding characters. There's been a series of heroes/warriors that have taken to the mantle
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Rakuyo

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:35 am
Souls: 34,259.00
Posts: 746
Reputation: 14
Wiki Edits: 6690
#4
You conclude that Aldrich ate Smough, and therefore releases his armor upon death.

I think the connection is simply that they're both depraved maneaters, and both linked to Anor Londo.

A lot of possibilities exist, and it could even be that Aldrich is an evolved form of the surviving Smough.
Those who seek dark, will always find it.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

Don't Panic

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 229.04
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16678
Reputation: 571
Wiki Edits: 459
#5
Rakuyo wrote:You conclude that Aldrich ate Smough, and therefore releases his armor upon death.

I think the connection is simply that they're both depraved maneaters, and both linked to Anor Londo.

A lot of possibilities exist, and it could even be that Aldrich is an evolved form of the surviving Smough.


I actually wondered if Aldrich was a Smough variant, but I can't find any support other than eating people. In fact, they actually have contradictory paths. Aldrich with the church and Smough still being tied to Anor Londo as a ”Knight.” I'm not saying it's impossible, but that'd be a lot to reconcile.

Primarily there'd be a matter of conflicting timelines if that's the case. DS3 gives a decent view of Aldrich's events which culminate in Anor Londo, but are a pretty well established path starting elsewhere. Smough on the other hand, according to DS3 anyway, never left Anor Londo.

So then, there is a good deal of evidence to think they're separate. And to put the pieces together again, Aldrich's​ path ended in Anor Londo in the area we're used to seeing Smough in. DS3 lore says he stayed there the whole time. Yet we never see him there.

In other words, he's supposed to be there but there's no trace. In the place you'd expect him (according to the items anyway) is an entity that is on a warpath to eat Gods. One in which he's started to become successful as he clearly has Gwyndolin.

TL;DR: If we take items even a little on faith, Smough not being present is contrary to what's stated, which is a path that's established to be quite different than Aldrich's. While there could be an intended parallel to explain the presence of Smough's armor after beating Aldrich, that doesn't adequately explain the elephant in the room. DS3 says Smough never left the Cathedral. So, the simplest solution I feel is what I presented. He remained faithful to his post, and we know for a fact his post came under assault from one of the more powerful entities around.
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon
Avatar

Rakuyo

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:35 am
Souls: 34,259.00
Posts: 746
Reputation: 14
Wiki Edits: 6690
#6
skarekrow13 wrote:
Rakuyo wrote:You conclude that Aldrich ate Smough, and therefore releases his armor upon death.

I think the connection is simply that they're both depraved maneaters, and both linked to Anor Londo.

A lot of possibilities exist, and it could even be that Aldrich is an evolved form of the surviving Smough.


I actually wondered if Aldrich was a Smough variant, but I can't find any support other than eating people. They actually have contradictory paths. Aldrich with the church and Smough still being tied to Anor Londo as a ”Knight.”

There's also a matter of conflicting timelines if that's the case. DS3 gives a decent view of Aldrich's events which culminate in Anor Londo, but are a pretty well established path starting elsewhere. Smough on the other hand, according to DS3 anyway, never left Anor Londo.

So then there is a good deal of evidence to think they're separate. And to put the pieces together again, Aldrich's​ path ended in Anor Londo in the area we're used to seeing Smough in. DS3 lore says he stayed there the whole time. Yet we never see him there.

In other words, he's supposed to be there but there's no trace. In the place you'd expect him (according to the items anyway) is an entity that is on a warpath to eat Gods. One in which he's started to become successful as he clearly has Gwyndolin.

TL;DR: If we take items even a little on faith, Smough not being present is contrary to what's stated, which is a path that's established to be quite different than Aldrich's. While there could be an intended parallel to explain the presence of Smough's armor after beating Aldrich, that doesn't adequately explain the elephant in the room. DS3 says Smough never left the Cathedral. So, the simplest solution I feel is what I presented. He remained faithful to his post, and we know for a fact his post came under assault from one of the more powerful entities around.


I don't claim being able to prove any connection between Aldrich and Smough, beyond the thematical resemblances.

I just like the idea of Smough actually being a black gel, manipulating a golden armor.
Those who seek dark, will always find it.
VIP
Avatar

skarekrow13

Moderator
Moderator

Don't Panic

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Souls: 229.04
Bank: 0.00
Posts: 16678
Reputation: 571
Wiki Edits: 459
#7
I totally get that. I did actually start looking at the possibility of them being the same, but couldn't find anything more than cannibalism. But it was the first place my mind went
Shop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop IconShop Icon

thflame

Addicted
First Warden

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:13 pm
Souls: 1,960.00
Posts: 272
Reputation: 17
#8
Isn't Aldritch from Anor Londo(or at least Irithyll)? Why does Aldritch have the Small Doll?

I like the idea that Smough is Aldritch. Both ate men, and both are from Anor Londo (I'm going to assume that Irithyll is just the modern name for the city of Anor Londo).

My overarching theory on all of this:

The Ornstien and Smough from DS1 are Illusions created by Gwyndolin to "protect" the lord vessel. In actuality, Gwyndolin would want a chosen undead to come take the Lord Vessel, to succeed his father, but I doubt that he would want his actual knights to die. (Also, I doubt he would be willing to die either, so the optional boss is just another illusion of himself.)

Furthermore, Ornstein and Smough (and Qwyndolin) are of the "god" race. These guys are insanely powerful. We are talking about a guy who killed arch dragons that FROM won't even let us fight in the game. (See the dragon on Arch Dragon Peak for size) I highly doubt a chosen undead could have easily defeated 2 full fledged "gods" at the same time when the final boss is a mere husk of a "god".

I think Gwyndolin took a shard of Ornstien's and Smough's Soul, and used them as fuel for illusory "gate keepers" to the Lord Vessel to act as a test of strength for the Chosen Undead.

The Ornstein in Dark Souls 2 is just another shard of the original Ornstein. DS2 Ornstein is guarding the Way of the Blue, which is effectively the Darkmoon Blades. Maybe when this faction of the DMBs went to Drangleic, Gwyndolin took another shard of Ornstein's Soul to make a guardian. (It is rumored that Gwynevere went to Drangleic, so perhaps the goal was to give her a bodyguard.)

Fast forward to DS3. The fire fades and the world needs a new lord of cinder. Gwyndolin sends Ornstein to find the Nameless King, leaving Smough to protect Gwyndolin. Ornstein takes too long, so Gwyndolin decides to send Smough to become a lord of cinder. Smough(Aldritch) is regarded as a saint for this selfless act and Qwyndolin erects a Cathedral to serve as his tomb. (This explains why you can buy Smough's armor after defeating Aldritch)

Later, Pontiff Sullivan climbs out of the Painted world and conquers Anor Londo (perhaps renaming the city to Irithyll) with Aldritch's help. Aldritch/Smough is upset about the whole "being burned alive thing" (Ludleth has some dialog describing the pain of linking the fire). Aldritch eats Gwyndolin, and Sullivan declares himself Pontiff.

Back to Ornstein.

Ornstein makes it to Archdragon Peak. There he mysteriously vanishes. His gear is not on a corpse, it is just sitting there. Also of note, you can't obtain it until after you defeat the Nameless King.

*This is where it gets weird, but you can ignore this if you like as it has no real bearing on the above theory, aside from not explaining the lack of a body for Ornstein in DS3.*

The Ornstein sent to retrieve the Nameless King is actually a shard of a greater being. He is being sent to retrieve the source of his soul, the Nameless King himself.

Ornstein is known as the captain of Gwyn's knights. The Nameless King was Gwyns first born son and a "War God". It wasn't uncommon for first born sons to become military leaders. Both were dragons slayers of great renown. Both use sword-spear-like weapons, though Ornstein's (the shard's) is less extravagant than the original. It would also be weird to have a guy like Ornstein be the captain of the knights, when someone like Nameless King was obviously more powerful and qualified for the position.

I think that when the Nameless King was exiled, he gave a shard of his soul to Gwyndolin so that Gwyndolin could use it to create a guardian if he ever needed it. Gwyndolin used that shard to create 3 Ornsteins.

1) A guardian of the Lord Vessel.

2) A guardian for his sister Qwynevere (though, perhaps the Nameless King just gave her a shard too, and that shard is the Ornstein in DS2)

3) A personal guardian that was sent to retrieve the Nameless King.
Avatar

ElCazador

Caffeinated
Guardian

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:50 am
Location: Iran
Souls: 116.00
Bank: 7,592.00
Posts: 780
Reputation: 40
Wiki Edits: 682
#9
Didn't know Smough was a maneater.