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malquisedesc

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#1
I have read recently several discussions about this topic but, as usual, nothing clear.

Are there some solid evidence that he is or he is not?

Also, I keep reading that from DS1 to DS2 a lot of cycles have happened. How do we know that? Is there some conversation/description that states that some cycle has happened? Or can it be that DS2 is just the next cycle after DS1?
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skarekrow13

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#2
I moved this to the Dark Souls II version of the archives where you'll find more expertise on Vendrick and DSII to hopefully stimulate more conversation.

I think there's a chance he is A chosen undead, but likely not the one from Dark Souls. The reason I think that is because it then invalidates a large segment of chosen undeads that we all played. You could say he's just one version since the games rely heavily on an infinite universes concept. However, it's just cleaner to say that we all made our own chosen undead last time, some other stuff happened, then Vendrick became part of the current cycle. There's also a (possible) radical shift in geography. I'll spoiler some stuff below about that, but going on mostly faith that Lordran turns into Drangleic, there's a lot of differences in geography. All of this transitions nicely into your next question.

There's some subtle things like the Vendrick idea above that might reasonably be perceived as evidence that it's more than one cycle. But since we don't know if Vendrick is from DSI, we can't do anything further than make guesses.

There are less subtle clues, but again nothing conclusive. Straid makes a direct statement that many kingdoms have risen and fallen. I might be imagining things, but I believe he even goes so far as to indicate that these kingdoms have been "in this spot" or some other variant alluding to "same geographical space." Shalquior is a little more vague but she also references the cycles and insinuates lots and lots of time has passed. Now some things would need to be taken on faith. For instance, if DSI is the literal beginning of the cycling (lords find souls) then Shalquoir's words combined with Straid's dialogue would CONFIRM that there have been many cycles between the two games. Shalquoir indicates that the "Old ones" are now so ancient that their names can't even be remembered. Except she essentially names at least one correctly. The interpretation for me is that their current names are obviously known and Shalquoir is alluding to their true beings' names being forgotten (the original holders of the four souls). So, if Gwyn and company were the ORIGINAL owners of the souls, then time has made everyone forget their names. It would also mean the cycles began with the first game, so Straid's assertion that many kingdoms have come and gone would mean that this is not the second cycle most likely.

However, as I noted in your other thread, I don't fully buy into Gwyn and company actually being the "first" cycle. As I've noted in another thread or two, DSI and DSII don't share the same pantheon (or anything resembling similar pantheons) or creation stories. I could delve deeper, but essentially, Gwyn and the Lords are the pantheon and the world as we know it was created when they found their souls. In DSII, the four Old Ones are NOT the pantheon or even part of it. The "gods" of this world are referenced but not seen. The Hunter's bow even directly states that one goddess was never divine, but legends and retelling of her story made it so she was worshipped as one. My take is that the game is telling us that gods in this land (whatever cycle) are merely "who has enough power to be worshipped." The creation story in DSII is pretty much nonexistent.

What this means for our purposes is that the creation story of the first game has a high potential to be exaggerated or even completely incorrect.

My belief is the answer is in the middle. The finding of the Lord Souls marked the beginning of that cycle and that's what was then translated into the creation story. Meaning that we're actually left wondering if DSI is the first cycle. In short, we can provide guesses in either direction, but the game never explicitly tells us the answer to any of these questions. While I believe there's some cycles between the two games and can write long posts elaborating my point, I can't prove it.

The geography is important to your question, but it's almost impossible to say for sure, just like the rest of this.

I won't go into all my evidence, but my money is strongly tied into the idea that Lordran turned into Drangleic. I'll call them the same "land" in my discussion and everything from this point is under the assumption they're the same land.

-Option 1: They're geographically in the exact same location-
Lordran fell and Dranlgleic was built on top of it. In this event it's highly likely that there were many cycles in between the two games. While there are some similar things that creep up, no one would say that the two regions are the same. Dark Souls took place under the shadow of the mountain Anor Londo is built on and appears to take place pretty much at or around the mountain. DSII features a broader range of geography and common elements are not the same. If you think Anor Londo became the very similar Heide's location, imagine the geography changes needed to flood a mountain. And then ask yourself how the buildings remained up. The end idea is that they're probably not the same spot, but maybe one was built to look like the other. Howeer, if you traverse the abyss in DSII you'll note architectural elements similar to New Londo. In this event, maybe they ARE the same place, but the geography is unrecognizable. The same goes for the Altar of Sunlight in Harvest Valley. Elements appear to have been retained, but the surroundings are different. It takes a lot of time for that radical of a change, therefore the evidence in this case is that there are numerous cycles in between.

-Option 2: They're in the same land, but not EXACTLY-
There's a couple things that could be the case here. Lordran seems to be all one fairly small geographical region. The Maps provided to us for DSII (collector's edition one and Majula both match) show a lot of area we "travel" but don't actually get to see. In other words, DSII is meant to take place over a wide swathe of land. If DSI is a smaller region, it's possible we only visit the pertinent locations in the first game, and the second game is just a larger geography. In that event, Lordran elements might be found in Drangleic but the meaning behind it could be suspect. For instance, the Sunlight Altar in Harvest Valley. Is that where Undead Burg was, or was the Altar moved? It's pretty far away from Dark Chasm entrances yet the Burg was close to New Londo. Meaningful, or does it make a difference since we enter portals to reach the Chasm? The Lordvessel might be in the basement in the Majula Mansion. Same thing, does the distance to other potentially known objects matter? We can't tell anything more than "some elements survived the cycles."

I wrote two very lengthy articles (links added at bottom) about something I feel strongly about that I call "spatial distortion." We know time is distorted in both games. In DSII, they go out of their way to show us how far away each location is from the next, yet give us a completely different experience. I won't delve into it here as I've written enough on the topic. However, if this applies to Drangleic, it might also apply to Lordran. I think it does, and have some evidence of that as well, but I digress. In that event, the literal locations of things are then less determinate, meaning that it'd be ultimately impossible to tell what geography in Lordran became what geography in Drangleic.

In Drangleic, we can say for sure based on maps that we explore a tiny fragment of the known land. If the same were true of Lordran we'd need a map of known locations in relation to the entirety of the land to make a judgment. We have a map in the first game, but it shows us the world as we experience it. It may or may not the world as it actually is. Dark Souls II gives us a map that's the opposite. In short, we can't compare the two maps and make any logical conclusion so therefore we have no way of translating the geography and no way of making a guess on how long has passed between games.

It's even possible based on everything I've just said that DSII comes BEFORE the first game

http://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-clouds/

http://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castl ... ight-spot/
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malquisedesc

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#3
So I see the disscusions goes as in some other theats I have read, but there is something I'm not buying so easily.

Why if the kingdoms that rise and fall are just that, human kingdoms, that have nothing to do with the cycle?

What if the canon ending is the dark lord ending and then the cycle is broken untill someone arrives to the klin of the first falme again and what we are seeing in DS2 is actually the age of darkness (so the age of humanity)?
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#4
It doesn't matter which ending you choose, it all ends up the same eventually anyway. If you choose Light, the age restarts. If you choose dark, it goes dark for a while before restarting on it's own.
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#5
I doubt he's the Chosen Undead from DS1.

He is a Chosen Undead just not the one we controlled.

The Age of Dark is an eventuality and the cycle seems to repeat with diminishing returns.

DS2 is just a later Cycle. It's not quite the end of it yet, since there are still souls. Maybe when there are no more souls in the world a New Age will begin and the Cycle ends.

Or it's just another bigger Cycle within the Cycle.

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#6
malquisedesc wrote:Why if the kingdoms that rise and fall are just that, human kingdoms, that have nothing to do with the cycle?



I'm glad that you mentioned this because I have always thought it was silly to just assume that every fallen kingdom has a corresponding Cycle. most kingdoms and empires barely last 100 years (if that), and these cycles last thousands of years if not tens of thousands.
assuming that every kingdom spanned for that long is not only illogical but needless in the telling of the story.

it would make more sense to assume that after the Flame was re-linked in DS1, the Lord Souls eventually found new homes in the ancient kings that we learn about in the DLC (Ivory, Iron, Sunken). and that the next cycle was in the hands of Vendrick (the next chosen manipulated undead).

it is important to notice that inside of the shrines that teleport you to the DLC areas, there is an Ashen Mist Heart. look in the shrine and then look at the AMH in your inventory for the comparison.

so within the DLC, we are retracing the memories of Vendrick. but this theory is fuddled by the OIK DLC when we enter the memories of the OIK, unless however, we were just going into a memory inside a memory, because that is what Vendrick did in his travels.

but then there is the matter of Raime. I won't waste time explaining how Raime complicates this theory because I feel that it is obvious enough. however, I could still make it work, as so many details remain unclear, leaving plenty of room for fan-lore.

and like I always say about DS2; there is no right answer because the devs purposely put up walls of contradiction around any path that hopes to connect all other paths. and I honestly believe that if DS1 had the same approach to story-telling, that none of us would be here right now talking about DS lore.


p.s.- the main reason that I think that we are retracing the path of Vendrick is because that is what the DLC was advertised as. so don't blame me for the litany of contradictions that it proposes. but feel free to disagree, of course.

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Mr_Rift

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#7
Nahztek wrote:(the next chosen manipulated undead).


Was that a Donnie Darko reference? :D
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Nahztek

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#8
I haven't watched that movie since it came out but I think I see what you mean by that. I really enjoyed that movie.

sidenote- my friend prints for a living and one day he noticed a Playboy Bunny print would look awesome with a skull print that they had left over from a job. so he superimposed them and it came out looking like the bunny entity in that movie, but with the Playboy bunny-ear bend. my roommates and I have the only existing prints.
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
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Orange19

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#9
The more I read about Dark Souls and the process by which it was created I realized Miyazaki wanted us to not only search for answers and discuss the game's Lore, but our own world's Lore. Physics, Religion and Philosophy, it's all there, and the only way to find the correct answer for something is answering questions that can't be answered at all. It all depends on your real life believes.

Physics
The First Flame is basically the Big Bang, and everything from there is just the Universe dying by Entropy. There is no way to save it, but one day, the Universe will "begin" again, after all particles go back to one (the Everlasting Ember in DkS Lore). The Age of Fire and the Age of Dark is just how mortals perceive the real cycle that does not have a name. Your choices does not change the outcome at all. How can I be so sure?
First there was DkS1 in which we had a choice, but regardless to what Ending you chose we got DkS2. And in DkS2 we also have choices to make, but guess what? It doesn't change a thing. The intro video shows us in kinda of Age of Dark scenario, going back in time, to Drangleic. Which means, what ever you choose, the future will basically be that. Ruins, Dark, a crazy lady with a creepy smile and the Undead.
In reality there are no such things as cycles, the Ages or Chosen Undeads; just people trying to pretend their choices and their lives matter. But they don't.

Religion
Dark Souls 2 introduces something new to the series: Reincarnation. I'm talking Spiritism here (a Religion that totally accepts Entropy and Science), the Old Ones are not basically looting someone else's souls. They are Reincarnation, having karmas and dharmas from past lives. That's implied in many different dialogues. The Lords and many other characters are Reincarnating, some of them eternally repeating the same mistakes of the past. Consider how the Cursed Undead knows things only the Chosen Undead would know. You could simply say they are just your PC, but they can also be your original character Reincarnating. There is a reason the Lord Souls are described as Old instead of Ancient. An Old Soul is the last Soul Age a soul goes through before being free from the world. The Lords and everyone else is paying for their crimes in past lives, but also reaching enlightenment on their own way. I can give a hypothetical example.

Siegmeyer was always stuck and always unable to actually do something. Consider Benhart as his Reincarnation, at first he repeats the same things Siegmeyer did, but later in the game, he is one of the phantoms to be by your side facing Nashandra at the end of everything. If you start making comparisons you will notice many of the DkS1 characters are there in Drangleic, only in different bodies and lives, but their souls are the same. Their essence. Some of them evolving, some devolving. Now you can either accept that the Cursed Undead is the Chosen Undead Reincarnation or that Vendrick is. But what is usually stated in the game is that Vendrick is Gwyn's Reincarnation, the Lord of Light.

Religion II
Although the game states this time and time again, few people seem to buy that the Ancient Lords are NOT divine. The only true "gods" in this world are the Everlasting Dragons, everyone else are just mortals that have done great things. Gwyn, the Witch and Nito did not appear out of nowhere, clothes and beards included and claimed the Lord Souls 1 second after the Advent of the First Flame. Consider the First Flame a Holy Grail, people sought for a very long time, a fabled source of extreme powers. Nito became a Lich to seek the First Flame, the Witch and her Coven traveled searching for it, Gwyn amassed an army to fight the dangers while looking for the Flame, and the Pygmy just followed kinda like Gollum. They were normal people, but with a very big dream. It was only after Gwyn's "death" by burning himself that his Children started the Way of White religion. Before that, Humans were free to worship their gods and believe whatever.
The intro in DkS1 is not a lie or exaggerated, you just need to understand that it was a simplified story of what happened during hundreds or even thousands of year time span.

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#10
I support the idea of the last great kingdom that stood on that spot. I thought as well that Vendrick was the Chosen undead, but then, as skarekrow13 said, that would nullify the idea of the many Chosen undead´s that many have made, it would have to be a male with that precise name; Vendrick.
I am one of those willing to visit the bonfires for time unmemmorial so others won´t have to...because I have ripped off my heart from my chest so other can keep their´s. One of those willing to stain my hand with blood so other can keep their´s clean...
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