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dn1nd

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#1
I've been mulling over this for a little.

I decided I wanted to see what others think.

I'm not going to say there was some grand scheme against bearers of the Lord Souls, but seeing how people with Great Souls have been treated in the sequels.

Is it possible that the Bearers of the Lord Souls were manipulated or fooled into the mistakes they made.

We have Primordial Serpents involved in the Shattering f the Dark Soul, and even Gwyn's successors relinking the flames.

Could Gwyn have been told about Linking the fire by somebody or Something?

Maybe the Witch of Izalith was influenced by anothers Idea to create her own First Flame.

Did someone else Inspire Nito to offer his soul to death?

Could this all have been to diminish the Lord Souls?

Kaathe seems vehement on the world plunging into an age of dark.

Fraampt seems to help by diminishing Souls with each undead sacrifice.

Maybe I'm just speculating too much.

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#2
Quite possible.

If anyone "tricked" Gwyn it had to have been Frampt, his confidant.

The idea that "darkness" has been corrupting the lords does fit the tone of the games.
It's outright stated in DS2, where each lord hooks up with a child of dark.
Those who seek dark, will always find it.
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#3
Possibly, but I think it may be a bit of a stretch unless there is some indication that the Lords were being kept ignorant of some better alternative to the actions they took. While it is just a temporary solution, Linking the Fire does fulfill it's purpose and from all indications there is simply no "ideal" method to permanently sustaining the Age of Fire to be found at all. At the same time, even if diminishing the souls occurs with each linking, that in itself doesn't really aid in ushering in an Age of Dark; if someone wanted that to occur there is no reason to present the linking option at all.

While Linking the Fire seems to become successively less effective, it may simply be a matter of entropy and inevitability that makes it so instead of some grand scheme in place. Yes, Kaathe and his ilk plot to bring about the Age of Dark but their actions seem to be geared towards accelerating its onset and controlling the outcome rather than being the source of the fire fading. The fire would fade regardless of their actions and the reign of the Lords was never going to last forever; the actions of the Lords to preserve their reign, more than anything were brought about by hubris and desperation and at least from a storytelling perspective I feel it's more appropriate.

While he was speaking about Oolacile and Manus specifically, Gough's words apply to Gods just as much as they do the mortals. "Seduced by a dark serpent or no" the Lords brought about their ruination themselves rather then accept their inevitable end gracefully. "One's demise is always one's own making."
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#4
Well... I don't have any evidence for this, but I'd imagine that if Kaathe ever managed to get his Age of Dark party started, then Frampt would spend the next who knows how long trying to convince a bunch of hollows to start some fires while Kaathe tries to extend the Age of Dark, instead of the other way around like it is now.

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#5
Just for my information, how did we find out that the serpents where involved in the shattering of the soul?
And where does it say that Nito himself offered his soul to death? Seen as his soul says that it was offered to death, but specifically avoided saying that he himself did it. Combined with the fact that we know that necros+Pinwheel leeched off his soul may indicate that it wasn't his doing.

I do think Gwyn had to have been told by someone, who in their right mind would give their life to a flame without knowing what it would do? Especially considering that he was among the strongest creatures to rule the kingdom at the time.

I do think the Witch could've gotten the idea from herself seen as she had the closest understanding of fire and was known for giving "life" to it.

I do like the theory, and it's definately plausible, but definately not certain.
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dn1nd

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#6
@n3t

Hawkeye Gough mentions the Serpent.

I suspect thou hast taken a gander at it,
But the Dark of the Abyss, which swallowed poor Artorias, threatens to devour our entire land of Oolacile.
It seems that this dire fate is unavoidable.
But, seduced by a Dark serpent or no,
They awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad.
…One's demise is always one's own making.


Nito's Soul may only states it was offered to death.

Soul of Gravelord Nito, first of the dead.
This Lord Soul was discovered at the
dawn of the Age of Fire.

Gravelord Nito administers the death of all
manner of beings. The power of his soul is
so great that it satiates the Lordvessel,
despite the fact that much of its energy has
already been offered to death.


But the Necromancers and Pinwheel Stealing Nito's power doesn't mean he offered it to them. All this shows is that they took his power, by definition an offering would be a gift and not a theft. We see that their stolen power from Nito makes them able to raise the dead, Hence all the Skeletons.

By the Skull Lantern Descripition and Mask of Father desriptions. We see that the stolen power of NIto's allows the Necroancers and Pinwheels to deny Nito's power over death.

Skull Lantern of the Catacombs necromancer.
Droops from his long beard locks.

This lantern alights the Tomb of the Giants,
Nito's light-devouring domain of death.
Also serves as a fire damage strike weapon.

One of the three masks of the Pinwheel, the necromancer who stole the power of the Gravelord, and reigns over the Catacombs


To help understand Nito's powers the eyes of Death and Gravelord Sword Dance helps paint a picture.

The dreadful Eyes of Death spread disaster
across neighboring worlds. Phantoms lured
to the host world may end up as victims,
allowing the Eyes of Death to multiply,
and leading to further proliferation of bane.

Miracle known only by the servants
of the first dead, Gravelord Nito.
Giant Gravelord swords jut out in vicinity.

Many have died, and many eyes were claimed to
realize the Greatsword Dance, a Gravelord
ritual known only by his closest servants.

Nito sleeps deep within the Giant Catacombs,
quietly overseeing all death, and waiting for
his servants to usher in the Eye of Death.


Nito's power is not only death but to spread disaster and bane. A meaning of Bane is a curse or scourge, it can also mean a poisonous death, as in his miasma.

Hope that answers your questions.


I mainly wanted to see others opinions on if the Lords were fooled or if they were thought of as just foolish. depending on the view can determine other theories one might come to. A big one being the cycle theory or dragon mage theory.

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#7
This idea has merit. Afterall look at this quote from one of the most influential pieces of fiction to the series, Berserk

"In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control; even over his own will."

Could it be that none of this is the will of Gwyn or Vendrick, but instead controlled by some unknown force that has been around since the Age of Ancients? I really like this idea, I hope it is explored a bit in the DLC. The serpents need to make an appearance, I miss those mustache things they had!

P.s. As always dn1nd you redeem this community. Every time I come on the lore page I am delighted by new ideas and not much toxicity, for that thank you. :00020: :00020:
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dn1nd

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#8
In DS3 we are given a Major hint on the First Flame, Through the Soul of Cinder. The Soul Of Cinder being a Manifestation of the First Flames will to protect itself.

This leads me to think that if the First Flame has a will, then all the Souls that came from it might be influenced by it. We have seen Powerful souls shape their own kingdoms, the First flame would be a greater soul than that. On a smaller scale we have also seen bonfires manifest wills of their own with their Fire Keepers.

Which leaves the Question, Why do the Serpents want an Age of Dark? Is there a competing will?

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#9
dn1nd wrote:In DS3 we are given a Major hint on the First Flame, Through the Soul of Cinder. The Soul Of Cinder being a Manifestation of the First Flames will to protect itself.

This leads me to think that if the First Flame has a will, then all the Souls that came from it might be influenced by it. We have seen Powerful souls shape their own kingdoms, the First flame would be a greater soul than that. On a smaller scale we have also seen bonfires manifest wills of their own with their Fire Keepers.

Which leaves the Question, Why do the Serpents want an Age of Dark? Is there a competing will?


Maybe.

Black Serpent
"Pyromancy discovered from the Abyss by High Lord Wolnir that inspired the black arts of the grave wardens.

Releases undulating black flames that trace the ground.

Be it sorcery or pyromancy, all techniques that infringe on humanity lead to the same place. That is to say, they all seek a will of their own."
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dn1nd

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#10
It'd be nice if we got an answer in one of the DLCs. I'm not expecting one but it would still be nice to have to fight the opposition of the First Flame.

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