Dedicated to digging into the game's lore. Bring your thinking caps.
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Delam_Farano

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#11
Humanity fixes it, yeah, but you said Lord Souls prevent Hollowing - the Dark Soul is the only one that spawned Humanity, so there's no reason why all the Lord Souls would have that effect.
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Caciowskij

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#12
Lord souls are not humanities, they're bigger souls.
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Orange19

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#13
My point was: We do know for sure that at least one of the Lord Souls prevents Hollowing. And there is no Hollow Ancient Lord in Lordran, afair. Gwyn doesn't act like one and he still have plenty of souls. Now back on topic. The Dark Lord would be the one with most Humanity in the world, so he probably wouldn't Hollow; unless you keep giving you Humanities to Kaathe.

Nick3111997

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#14
JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Now, I haven't checked out the DkS1 board in a long time, so forgive me if this has been suggested/posted/discussed to death...but I was thinking about DkS1 lore the other day and came to a conclusion.

So, I've always tooled around with the idea that Gwyn represents the player, in a way. In the first playthrough, Gwyn is the final boss, yes...but what was Gwyn's story? In the end, he rekindled the First Flame, was essentially incinerated, went Hollow, and now spends his time protecting the Flame from the Dark/being extinguished. Despite it having since dwindled, Gwyn stays, hollow/mindlessly protecting the Flame that is barely even there anymore.

The player is likely to not know about the Dark Lord ending on their first playthrough, and would rekindle the First Flame...thus, being incinerated, going Hollow, and, well, more than likely Hollowly hanging around protecting the Flame from being extinguished. This idea fits pretty snugly into the inherent theme of cycles prevalent throughout the entire game (and series as a whole).

So, if this is true, the Dark Lord ending is surely a way to break the cycle, and instead usher in an age of Dark, right?

Wrong. In order to usher in an age of Dark, what would you need to do, more than anything else? Prevent the First Flame from being rekindled. How do you do that? Well, you sit and wait for somebody to come and try to rekindle the First Flame, and then you kill them.

Seldom does an Undead actually make it to the Kiln, however, and as the Dark Lord obsessed with Dark and keeping the First Flame unkindled, you probably are waiting for somebody to come for a very long time. What happens when somebody becomes completely obsessed with a singular goal, to the point that that goal completely consumes them and they lose their sense of self? They go Hollow.

So, if you listen to Frampt, you sacrifice yourself in order to rekindle the First Flame, spending your subsequent time Hollowly guarding the Flame from being extinguished (even though it eventually dwindles).
If you listen to Kaathe, you kill Gwyn and go on to spend your subsequent time guarding the First Flame, ensuring it is never rekindled (all the while becoming consumed by your obsession, and in turn more and more Hollow).

Essentially, it's the same thing. Regardless of their motivation, the Chosen Undead succeeds Gwyn, protecting the First Flame (from either being extinguished or rekindled).

In the end, I think both Serpents are telling the truth - or, at least, the truth they believe. Neither is inherently lying to you...however, the lie rests in them making you think you have a choice to begin with. That is why the symbol of a Two-Headed Serpent is so prevalent throughout the game: Yes, you have two Serpents, and two different options...but, at the end of the day, they are two heads of the same Serpent (a symbol of deception)...two sides of the same coin, so to speak...and no matter how you choose to go about it, your fate remains exactly the same.


The only issue I see with this is that once the flame extinguishes all the gods lose their power. Their would no longer be any souls that would be able to satiate the Lordvessel as they would lose their power. Once that door shuts no would be able to get inside ever again. If there was some other way into the Kiln then surely the serpents would be able to get you inside without having you kill 4 of the most powerful beings in existence.

Not to mention as the Dark Lord you could probably get others to defend the Kiln. Heck, you could use your power to erase the knowledge of the Age of Fire entirely so no one would even know about it.
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Nahztek

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#15
[quote="Nick3111997"][Not to mention as the Dark Lord you could probably get others to defend the Kiln. quote]


Much like the Throne Watcher and Throne Defender guarding the Throne of Want.

Want is derived from Human nature. Humans are humans because of Humanity. Humanity Sprites are fragments of the Dark Soul. You could just as easily call it the Throne of the Dark Lord.

The Defender/Watcher even have Dark Souls. Nashandra wants you to become a 'true monarch' by 'carrying the weight of you souls', which is the opposite of sacrificing them to Relink the Flame.
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Nick3111997

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#16
Nahztek wrote:
Nick3111997 wrote:[Not to mention as the Dark Lord you could probably get others to defend the Kiln. quote]


Much like the Throne Watcher and Throne Defender guarding the Throne of Want.

Want is derived from Human nature. Humans are humans because of Humanity. Humanity Sprites are fragments of the Dark Soul. You could just as easily call it the Throne of the Dark Lord.

The Defender/Watcher even have Dark Souls. Nashandra wants you to become a 'true monarch' by 'carrying the weight of you souls', which is the opposite of sacrificing them to Relink the Flame.


I assume that Nashandra has placed them there to prevent anyone from re-kindling the flame.

On another note; Velstadt is apparently defending the King but I actually suspect something more sinister. I think he is loyal to Nashandra and is actually preventing Vendrick from leaving. Given that he uses dark magic, it is feasible that he is capable of defeating Vendrick.
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Nahztek

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#17
Nick3111997 wrote:
Nahztek wrote:
Nick3111997 wrote:[Not to mention as the Dark Lord you could probably get others to defend the Kiln. quote]


Much like the Throne Watcher and Throne Defender guarding the Throne of Want.

Want is derived from Human nature. Humans are humans because of Humanity. Humanity Sprites are fragments of the Dark Soul. You could just as easily call it the Throne of the Dark Lord.

The Defender/Watcher even have Dark Souls. Nashandra wants you to become a 'true monarch' by 'carrying the weight of you souls', which is the opposite of sacrificing them to Relink the Flame.


I assume that Nashandra has placed them there to prevent anyone from re-kindling the flame.

.



The descriptions say that they have been Guarding/Watching the Throne for ages, awaiting the next Monarch. Monarch is just another word for Lord. You don't become a Lord by Relinking the Flame. You become ashes.
But you become the Dark Lord if you let the world fade to Dark. Use of monarchial terms along with implications of the word 'Want' in relation to this IP, strongly suggest that the throne is more related to Dark than Flame.

Nashandra also talks about you being worthy when you fight her.
Her only desire is to find the true Dark Lord, which is why her and her sisters all sought out powerful kings.
There isn't much reason for her to approve of your worth is her only goal is to stop anyone from entering. She will either kill you and take all of the souls you collected, or, if you are worthy, you kill her and consume her, restoring another fraction of the Dark Soul before you take the Throne.


However, I do believe that by ascending the Throne, as you do in the ending, you still have the power to Relink the Flame, should you decide to do so.


@OP- Sorry. This became a bit of a derail from the DS1 topics.
"If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
- The Prophet
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