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#21
Highlighting a few things I disagree with. It's fairly obvious that you haven't used a few of these spells since the game first came out, so most of this will just be so you know which ones to give a second chance. A few others will be because I outright disagree, though.

Black Flame: They did boost its hitbox at some point, it isn't as small and narrow as it used to be. The Pyromancer's Parting Flame adds +30% damage with its little flame puff, but the normal Pyromancy Flame can combo Black Flame into the weapon art Combustion for more damage. Which was impractical before due to the impractically tiny hitbox, but it's fine now.

Black Serpent: It really doesn't need more buffs. It's okay for a spell to be imperfect, because if it were perfect and worked every time then it'd be **** broken. There needs to be flaws, because this both gives you incentive to use a different spell alongside it and lets you play annoying mind games with people because they'll have to guess which one you're about to use. The problem isn't that Black Serpent is imperfect, it's that there isn't another setup spell to cover for its holes. DaS3 lacks spell variety or even spell strategy something fierce.

Profaned Flame: Don't try to hit people with it, use it as a free-aimed setup spell. The explosion is delayed just exactly enough to go off at the same time a follow-up spell would connect.

Sacred Flame: Use it against the new paired greatshields.

Boulder Heave: This one is actually really good, and not just for the fact that its startup animation looks exactly like Toxic Mist. Part of it is because the AoE is obnoxiously hard to roll through, part of it is because the range is so variable when you aim it manually, part of it is the pure physical damage screwing with people who try to equip against fire damage. Really, if you think Chaos Orb is good because of its lava puddle, this one is good for a similar reason. It's a lot like a GCFO that automatically aims for your feet.

Flame Whip: People like it because it combos with things. At least, it did last I checked.

Lightning Stake: The only thing this has that Sunlight Spear doesn't is the slight AoE at impact, which is just enough so that people can still take a little damage if they roll off to the side. Sunlight Spear does more damage in melee, is faster to cast, and doubles as a projectile.

Sunlight Spear: And on that note, I don't know what you're smoking here, but Sunlight Spear is the best projectile Faith has access to and one of the better projectiles in the game by a long shot. Its only problem is that it costs too much FP, but its balance of damage vs cast speed vs projectile speed are top-notch, along with the side benefits like Unfaltering Prayer and the little bolts that jump off to do damage against things it slightly misses. And yes, I'm talking about PvP.

Lifehunt Scythe: Yes it's bad, I'm just putting this here so I can tell you its healing effect was bugged for the longest time. It was doing this thing where if you had the talisman equipped in your left hand, the healing would depend on the Faith scaling of your right-hand weapon, which it wasn't supposed to. They changed that, and now it heals pretty okay. There is exactly one situation where you can use this spell unironically though, and that's as a low-level Cleric (40-45fth, 7int) with the Sunless Talisman, at which point it's a heck of a lot stronger than your other options. Also, the FP cost is really, really cheap, making it especially useful for low-level stuff.

Dorhy's Gnawing: I'm starting to think you just aren't good with certain types of spells. You know how you said people ignore Toxic Mist because they can see the buildup, and even if they do get poisoned the damage is kinda slow anyways? Dorhy's doesn't have those problems. Use it alongside a bleed weapon, and you can use it to trade for half someone's HP bar, which neatly sidesteps the problem the majority of bleed weapons have (i.e. can't trade for ****). The projectile is also fast enough that you can, if not hit, then at least threaten people at range, and if they try to do that silly thing where they dodge back and forth hoping you'll use up your FP, you'll hit them eventually because the cost is basically nothing. Although, it's mainly good on a SL50-60 PvPer or invader with the Sunless Talisman, alongside Lifehunt Scythe up there.

Way of White Corona, Emit Force (and other physical miracles): I'm going to tell you a secret, okay? The Saint Talisman gets a damage boost with physical miracles. Not so much that it'll outdo Yorshka's Chime at 60fth, but enough that with 40 Faith, the two miracle rings, and Rose of Ariandel's buff, you can do 300 damage per hit with Corona. The spell compares pretty well with Great Farron Dart. Emit Force is one of those weird ones you have to get really good at aiming manually, but when you do it combines guardbreak and knockdown with a projectile, which is something nothing else in the game can do.

Miracles overall: If you aren't using Rose of Ariandel on a Faith caster, you're doing it wrong. There's nothing more to say about it, really.

Great Soul Arrow: Every time I see someone cast this in PvP, I laugh. I'm serious. It's bad purely for the fact that it's so mediocre at everything. This spell has no outstanding qualities. It's easy on the FP, but that doesn't help it hit people or control the arena in any way.

Great Soul Arrow: Its casting speed is exactly one second slower than Crystal Soul Spear, for the record. That's an eternity in PvP time. Also, keep in mind that CSS's hitbox is several times larger than GHSA's. GHSA has no place in PvP when CSS is faster, stronger, homes better, and is fatter. GHSA is, like, diet CSS, in the same sense that diet soda is like soda.

Farron Hail: Can be walked around at close range, which is a serious problem when the standard solution to casters is "be in close range".

Crystal Hail: This is just here for the record, but you know the part where you said "This needs more than one projectile wave coming from the sky. Also, the recovery needs to be quicker so you can shoot a Soul Arrow at the same time the Hail falls from the sky"? They patched Crystal Hail ages ago, and that is in fact exactly what they did to it. It now shoots three projectile waves down, and an additional cluster of homing projectiles, and the cast speed is hella fast, but the spell still manages to be kinda crap.

Affinity: Cast Affinity while in range of your target, follow immediately with Twisted Wall of Light. It becomes roughly 500% harder to dodge. You can also follow TWoL immediately after with Great Deep Soul if you want, for a similar effect.


One thing I want to mention above anything else, though, is that you're looking at these spells as if the only thing you can use them with is other spells of their type. Technically speaking, there's nothing at all preventing you from using Homing Crystal Soulmass after Black Serpent, or Great Soul Dregs followed by Sunlight Spear (in which case the Spear zips ahead of the Dregs and the Dregs nails anyone trying to dodge the Spear). Yes, there's the issue of which rings to use, except the only rings you need to wear are the spells you intend to use for damage rather than setup, and your opponent isn't going to know which rings you aren't using.
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#22
TSMP wrote:Affinity: Cast Affinity while in range of your target, follow immediately with Twisted Wall of Light. It becomes roughly 500% harder to dodge. You can also follow TWoL immediately after with Great Deep Soul if you want, for a similar effect.


There's a lot of good info in your post but I don't understand this part. Doesn't TWoL reflect spells? Why would you cast that after affinity?

Does the lingering dragon crest ring increase the duration of weapon art and catalyst buffs?
Is spell parry any good in PvP or should I roll dodge?
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#23
Rizen wrote:There's a lot of good info in your post but I don't understand this part. Doesn't TWoL reflect spells? Why would you cast that after affinity?

Does the lingering dragon crest ring increase the duration of weapon art and catalyst buffs?
Is spell parry any good in PvP or should I roll dodge?

Yes, TWoL reflects spells, including your own. The idea is to cast TWoL just before your Affinity fires off (which happens naturally if you cast Affinity while in range and immediately follow with TWoL), then Affinity will bounce all over the place and come at your opponent from sideways, above, behind, etc. Much trickier to dodge when it's coming at them from multiple directions and different distances than if it's just flying straight at them in a singular clump.

Lingering boosts the duration of weapon buff spells, but it doesn't affect weapon art buffs.

Spell parry is very situational. Technically speaking, it's strictly worse than trying to dodge a spell, but sometimes you don't know if your opponent is going to attack or cast a spell at point blank hoping to catch you in a parry. Keep in mind it can't deflect everything, like I don't think it'll do anything about Soul Greatsword, but it can knock Sunlight Spear or Chaos Bed Vestiges out of the way.
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#24
TSMP wrote:
Rizen wrote:There's a lot of good info in your post but I don't understand this part. Doesn't TWoL reflect spells? Why would you cast that after affinity?

Does the lingering dragon crest ring increase the duration of weapon art and catalyst buffs?
Is spell parry any good in PvP or should I roll dodge?

Yes, TWoL reflects spells, including your own. The idea is to cast TWoL just before your Affinity fires off (which happens naturally if you cast Affinity while in range and immediately follow with TWoL), then Affinity will bounce all over the place and come at your opponent from sideways, above, behind, etc. Much trickier to dodge when it's coming at them from multiple directions and different distances than if it's just flying straight at them in a singular clump.

Lingering boosts the duration of weapon buff spells, but it doesn't affect weapon art buffs.

Spell parry is very situational. Technically speaking, it's strictly worse than trying to dodge a spell, but sometimes you don't know if your opponent is going to attack or cast a spell at point blank hoping to catch you in a parry. Keep in mind it can't deflect everything, like I don't think it'll do anything about Soul Greatsword, but it can knock Sunlight Spear or Chaos Bed Vestiges out of the way.

That's a neat idea.

Okay, good to know. Thanks.
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#25
I've been doing some invading. Why do people think flame surge is good? Every time I use it the enemy just hits me. It doesn't even do any stun. Is there a trick to it?
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#26
Rizen wrote:I've been doing some invading. Why do people think flame surge is good? Every time I use it the enemy just hits me. It doesn't even do any stun. Is there a trick to it?

Spacing. A sizable part of PvP in this game is knowing how to control the distance between yourself and your opponent, and moving in such a way that their attacks miss but yours hit. Flame Surge has more range than most weapons and is quick enough to land a hit and roll away before your opponent can get close enough to hit.

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#27
TSMP wrote:Highlighting a few things I disagree with. It's fairly obvious that you haven't used a few of these spells since the game first came out, so most of this will just be so you know which ones to give a second chance. A few others will be because I outright disagree, though.

Black Flame: They did boost its hitbox at some point, it isn't as small and narrow as it used to be. The Pyromancer's Parting Flame adds +30% damage with its little flame puff, but the normal Pyromancy Flame can combo Black Flame into the weapon art Combustion for more damage. Which was impractical before due to the impractically tiny hitbox, but it's fine now.

Black Serpent: It really doesn't need more buffs. It's okay for a spell to be imperfect, because if it were perfect and worked every time then it'd be **** broken. There needs to be flaws, because this both gives you incentive to use a different spell alongside it and lets you play annoying mind games with people because they'll have to guess which one you're about to use. The problem isn't that Black Serpent is imperfect, it's that there isn't another setup spell to cover for its holes. DaS3 lacks spell variety or even spell strategy something fierce.

Profaned Flame: Don't try to hit people with it, use it as a free-aimed setup spell. The explosion is delayed just exactly enough to go off at the same time a follow-up spell would connect.

Sacred Flame: Use it against the new paired greatshields.

Boulder Heave: This one is actually really good, and not just for the fact that its startup animation looks exactly like Toxic Mist. Part of it is because the AoE is obnoxiously hard to roll through, part of it is because the range is so variable when you aim it manually, part of it is the pure physical damage screwing with people who try to equip against fire damage. Really, if you think Chaos Orb is good because of its lava puddle, this one is good for a similar reason. It's a lot like a GCFO that automatically aims for your feet.

Flame Whip: People like it because it combos with things. At least, it did last I checked.

Lightning Stake: The only thing this has that Sunlight Spear doesn't is the slight AoE at impact, which is just enough so that people can still take a little damage if they roll off to the side. Sunlight Spear does more damage in melee, is faster to cast, and doubles as a projectile.

Sunlight Spear: And on that note, I don't know what you're smoking here, but Sunlight Spear is the best projectile Faith has access to and one of the better projectiles in the game by a long shot. Its only problem is that it costs too much FP, but its balance of damage vs cast speed vs projectile speed are top-notch, along with the side benefits like Unfaltering Prayer and the little bolts that jump off to do damage against things it slightly misses. And yes, I'm talking about PvP.

Lifehunt Scythe: Yes it's bad, I'm just putting this here so I can tell you its healing effect was bugged for the longest time. It was doing this thing where if you had the talisman equipped in your left hand, the healing would depend on the Faith scaling of your right-hand weapon, which it wasn't supposed to. They changed that, and now it heals pretty okay. There is exactly one situation where you can use this spell unironically though, and that's as a low-level Cleric (40-45fth, 7int) with the Sunless Talisman, at which point it's a heck of a lot stronger than your other options. Also, the FP cost is really, really cheap, making it especially useful for low-level stuff.

Dorhy's Gnawing: I'm starting to think you just aren't good with certain types of spells. You know how you said people ignore Toxic Mist because they can see the buildup, and even if they do get poisoned the damage is kinda slow anyways? Dorhy's doesn't have those problems. Use it alongside a bleed weapon, and you can use it to trade for half someone's HP bar, which neatly sidesteps the problem the majority of bleed weapons have (i.e. can't trade for ****). The projectile is also fast enough that you can, if not hit, then at least threaten people at range, and if they try to do that silly thing where they dodge back and forth hoping you'll use up your FP, you'll hit them eventually because the cost is basically nothing. Although, it's mainly good on a SL50-60 PvPer or invader with the Sunless Talisman, alongside Lifehunt Scythe up there.

Way of White Corona, Emit Force (and other physical miracles): I'm going to tell you a secret, okay? The Saint Talisman gets a damage boost with physical miracles. Not so much that it'll outdo Yorshka's Chime at 60fth, but enough that with 40 Faith, the two miracle rings, and Rose of Ariandel's buff, you can do 300 damage per hit with Corona. The spell compares pretty well with Great Farron Dart. Emit Force is one of those weird ones you have to get really good at aiming manually, but when you do it combines guardbreak and knockdown with a projectile, which is something nothing else in the game can do.

Miracles overall: If you aren't using Rose of Ariandel on a Faith caster, you're doing it wrong. There's nothing more to say about it, really.

Great Soul Arrow: Every time I see someone cast this in PvP, I laugh. I'm serious. It's bad purely for the fact that it's so mediocre at everything. This spell has no outstanding qualities. It's easy on the FP, but that doesn't help it hit people or control the arena in any way.

Great Soul Arrow: Its casting speed is exactly one second slower than Crystal Soul Spear, for the record. That's an eternity in PvP time. Also, keep in mind that CSS's hitbox is several times larger than GHSA's. GHSA has no place in PvP when CSS is faster, stronger, homes better, and is fatter. GHSA is, like, diet CSS, in the same sense that diet soda is like soda.

Farron Hail: Can be walked around at close range, which is a serious problem when the standard solution to casters is "be in close range".

Crystal Hail: This is just here for the record, but you know the part where you said "This needs more than one projectile wave coming from the sky. Also, the recovery needs to be quicker so you can shoot a Soul Arrow at the same time the Hail falls from the sky"? They patched Crystal Hail ages ago, and that is in fact exactly what they did to it. It now shoots three projectile waves down, and an additional cluster of homing projectiles, and the cast speed is hella fast, but the spell still manages to be kinda crap.

Affinity: Cast Affinity while in range of your target, follow immediately with Twisted Wall of Light. It becomes roughly 500% harder to dodge. You can also follow TWoL immediately after with Great Deep Soul if you want, for a similar effect.


One thing I want to mention above anything else, though, is that you're looking at these spells as if the only thing you can use them with is other spells of their type. Technically speaking, there's nothing at all preventing you from using Homing Crystal Soulmass after Black Serpent, or Great Soul Dregs followed by Sunlight Spear (in which case the Spear zips ahead of the Dregs and the Dregs nails anyone trying to dodge the Spear). Yes, there's the issue of which rings to use, except the only rings you need to wear are the spells you intend to use for damage rather than setup, and your opponent isn't going to know which rings you aren't using.


I can guarantee you that I used all these spells very recently (since the last patch, in fact... Except Crystal Hail, you got me there. I really thought I did, but gues not. Apologize, everybody.) and always firmly tested them out each time one got patched. Now let me discuss back.

Black Flame: Well... I didn't actually had a complaint for it past it still being rather stiff by its lonesome. It should always be used together with Parting Flame as it adds a lot to the spell.

Black Serpent: Eh, I still think it should initially track a little better. It might be still good, buuuut I'd say it could be a little better... Well, I much prefer other spells getting buffed before it, anyways. It's a buff that may or may not could be consider after everything else gets a little boost, I agree there.

Profaned Flame: Depends on distance... And if you are good at free aiming. A big issue I often got is that free-aiming is very much required before a spell is even somewhat useful. Again, that should be a next tier tactic to become less predictable, not make the spell itself a bit decent. It shouldn't be just a distraction for other spells, but a dangerous spell that is also a distraction... Kinda like Black Serpent.

Sacred Flame: Sooo... You're telling me that this one spell is useful against one weapon in the game?... And I assume only sometimes, since your foe has to give you an opening. It might be useful against all enemies with Unfaltering Prayer on the White Hair Talisman, which would give the Talisman some use and offer a new way of playing as a Pyromancer.

Boulder Heave: True and untrue. The Aoe is a bit wacky, I won't deny it, yet isn't it very difficult to avoid. It has its use, but I honestly think it should get some boost in terms of overall speed, still. Also, the free aiming aspect to give it range also does bother me just like with a lot other spells. If it were only on looong range, I would not mind it. Also... Stack up Fire resistance? Well, I can only really see that happen when you fight the same person multiple times in a row (happened to me once, actually). Even so, this would be your only useful spell, then.

Flame Whip: It can still, but hitting somebody with this thing is like trying to strike somebody with the DS2 Pickaxe. Your character completely locks up and stifly blasts it forward.

Lightning Stake: Yep, and that AoE makes it so much better in melee range because it can roll catch, something incredibly important to have in DS3 yet scarce as hell amongst all weapons.

Sunlight Spear: It might be the most powerful projectile for a Faith person, but I still consider it too slow, predictable and weak when used in both melee and range. I do keep saying that I don't mind it's melee range aspect, but the projectile is just not up to the immense cost. Second, despite its speed getting buffed, it is still too slow to combo with Lightning Storm, only if the target gets hit three times, and only during a specific moment of the Storms duration, will you able to hit him. Third, the wider hitbox hardly helps. People still can avoid it with a very simple roll and are even able to strafe the giant bolt of electricity. Fourth, how many times did you try using it as a melee strike, yet it turned into a projectile because the enemy was just a step too far away? I can't befriend myself with this spell, mostly due to the fact that it used to be the only "proper" long range projectile amongst Miracles. Thank god for Lightning Arrow. Also, what about the other two Lightning Spears? Weak and expensive for their speed.

Again, it is too bad when used as a projectile, especially when compared to high cost spells of other schools, and its gimmick comes hardly into play in PvP due to multiple factors, at lest I think so.

Lifehunt Scythe: I actually agree with the low level usefulness, but that is, again, an easy cop-out for an argument. It shouldn't be just useful at low levels, but always. The healing got fixed, I know that, didn't felt the need to bring that up (as I said, I used every spell since the last patch). It still heals pretty mediocre, even with multiple enemies hit. At least compared to its overall crappiness... If it gets faster/stronger, the heal will be totally fine.

Dorhy's Gnawing: I might should've said that I mainly talk about when these spells are getting used against competed, skilled players, eh? Because against those guys, this is is useless. Also, I also focused on using these spells on a pure spellcaster. Toxic Cloud can be used on a pure caster, still, unlike this one. When used together with a bleed weapon... Eh, still can't say it would find much use. It is far less stiff since a recent patch, true, but, well, first, your opponent clearly hears what spell you are casting, this one having a very unique sound cue that should warn everyone who has encountered this spell before. That silly thing of dodging around back and forth often only not so good players do... Which is why I can't really take as a good argument for this spell. Your opponents skill shouldn't be a serious factor used in the overall a discussion about the overall usefulness for spells (or weapons), I'd say. I mean, eventually they will learn to not do that. Might be useful on lower levels due to lower bleed resist etc.. Still, just like Lifehunt Scythe, only being useful then shouldn't be the case.

Way of White Corona: My, you are getting a bit cheeky here, my friend. Then let me say something cheeky back. It's still pretty poopy, even with those facts. Your arguments here are more or less that it is good on a low level build (which I already said why that shouldn't be a positive point) and hybrids. And it being like Farron Dart? Ohoh, no. It's too slow in casting and projectile speed , too obvious and too low range to be as useful as that spell. I mean, it doesn't try to be. It has a gimmick, for that gimmick it is too weak or slow or predictable. And I guess those 300 damage are raw, right? Because I can't hit anybody but hollows with that much damage. Doubling the damage might've been me exaggerating a bit, I admit, but I still would say it needs a boost of 50% in damage... Or a faster projectile.

And about Emit Force... Well, first off, yes I know you need to be good at free aiming with this thing, though the projectile speed still is too slow to really hit folks. Though, what I wanted to say... Who blocks agaisnt spells but new blokes?... No, really, after hundred of duels with my Miracle build I fought a handful carrying a shield useful for blocking... And they did not use it against me.

Miracles overall: Erm, I do use it... What does that have to do with anything? You mean the buff? It's neato... Outside of the arena... and often fighting clubs. Smacking people with it is fun when suddenly pulling it out from your offhand, too... You probably should've elaborated here, mate.

Great Soul Arrow: Why? It's fast, cheap, deals good damage and can actually be rather surprising. It's good as suppressing fire as it is so spammable (and has fast projectile speed, unlike Great Deep Soul). The faster casting speed also allows it to still hit folks when you know they messed up the distancing of their sprinting attack, at least for anything slower than a Katana, unlike CSP.

Great Heavy Soul Arrow: I forgot to mention it, and I apologize for that, but the key factor is the element of surprise. Nobody expects a dinky projectile after such a long casting time, and nobody expects it to deal that much damage. That is one upside of Sorcery I failed to mention: A lot of spells have the exact same casting animation and sound cues. I conceit, you should probably use it together with GSA, CSP or SP, even, to better throw people off. That is a tactic that even can work against skilled players, yes, since they are very hard to distinguish.

Crystal Hail: Yes, I admit, I failed to test this spell properly. I shall use Rose of Ariandle on myself for that (But I swear I so tested it; is it really still so bad that I did not notice a difference?). But you already said that it still is crappy, and after properly testing it again... Yeah. There really is only one issue with it... Well, maybe two. First and foremost, it does not stun your opponent. If it would, it would actually work out as a setup spell. Second, the tracking could be a bit better. Lemme upgrade that.

Farron Hail: That is true, though don't I think is it this spells job to keep people off your toes. I mean, if it could, it would be nice... A sorcery that did just that would've been nice in the recent DLC, eh?

Affinity: I wouldn't say 500%, but... C'mon, you're telling me I'm supposed to use some wacky tactic to make this spell at least a bit useful? It should be good by its lonesome, the tactic you proclaim only used to open up more possibilities. I mean, Twisted Wall of Light is near useless past this, so you basically turn Affinity into a two-slot spell in exchange for a new angle of attack.

I have a good point as of why I did this. First, spells have a base stat requirement, thus pretty much locking off all useful Miracles and many Pyromancies from pure Sorcerers and vice versa. One possibility is Pyromancers (or Hexers) using the Crystal Bell, which has a really great spell buff on an equal big Int and Faith. Still, on a proper PvP build (unless you want to sacrifice tons of health and stamina) you won't get access to the bestest of the best Miracles and Sorceries, not to mention how two of the best Miracles almost 100% need Unfaltering Prayer. Aaaand... at that point, most Sorceries will be outclassed by Pyromancies, anyways, in terms of speed, costs and damage. Not in unpredictability, that holds true.

And mixing those rings, (Ugh, they shouldn't be here in the first place, but they are, so let's talk about it) yes, yes you can use two of two different schools. But then either each school will deal less damage, you will have less durability due to not wearing more than one ring that boosts health/armour etc.

A way to turn this ring problem less... problematic, is to just boost all spells by the percentage of the weaker versions and allow to only wear one of the two that boost one category. If that happens, I might very well consider mixing spells from different schools together not a terrible thing... Depends, then still don't mesh together too swell.

Edit: One final question I failed to ask: I'd like to know what suggestions you do actually agre with or add more/different things that you think can improve the spell. You certainly do know what you are talking about and are detailed in your description, that much is clear, so I'd love to hear more from you.
Last edited by MrMoho on Fri May 19, 2017 7:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
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#28
TSMP wrote:
Rizen wrote:I've been doing some invading. Why do people think flame surge is good? Every time I use it the enemy just hits me. It doesn't even do any stun. Is there a trick to it?

Spacing. A sizable part of PvP in this game is knowing how to control the distance between yourself and your opponent, and moving in such a way that their attacks miss but yours hit. Flame Surge has more range than most weapons and is quick enough to land a hit and roll away before your opponent can get close enough to hit.

Okay that's good to know. Thanks.
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#29
MrMoho wrote:Black Flame: Well... I didn't actually had a complaint for it past it still being rather stiff by its lonesome. It should always be used together with Parting Flame as it adds a lot to the spell.

And there are a lot of spells Parting Flame is worse with than the normal pyro flame. You get the extra stagger earlier with Parting (but less damage, since Combustion WA can combo with BF), but less damage on Vestiges, Serpent, BF, and so on. I won't argue the value of that trade since speed is almost always better than power, but I sometimes wonder if people know just how much they're giving up for it.

Black Serpent: Eh, I still think it should initially track a little better. It might be still good, buuuut I'd say it could be a little better... Well, I much prefer other spells getting buffed before it, anyways. It's a buff that may or may not could be consider after everything else gets a little boost, I agree there.

I don't think it should initially track better, because at that range you should be using Black Flame or a melee attack instead. It doesn't need to be perfect, casters just need more/better options.

Profaned Flame: Depends on distance... And if you are good at free aiming. A big issue I often got is that free-aiming is very much required before a spell is even somewhat useful. Again, that should be a next tier tactic to become less predictable, not make the spell itself a bit decent. It shouldn't be just a distraction for other spells, but a dangerous spell that is also a distraction... Kinda like Black Serpent.

Yes, I agree that the lock-on mechanic as is **** over ranged fighters. Like, I don't know, maybe make the right stick change where you're aiming at without breaking lock-on, except then you can't switch targets. Make it a toggle maybe, like click the right stick to switch from 'change target' to 'pseudo free-aim'?

If the spell itself isn't dangerous, then it isn't a distraction because there's less reason to avoid it. Black Serpent is a distraction purely because it staggers just long enough for Vestiges to hit. Profaned Flame is a distraction for a very different reason, because if it hits it does decent damage and puts the opponent in a bad position. You don't want everything to distract the same way, because then if your opponent had a way to disable your one tactic you'd be ****.

Sacred Flame: Sooo... You're telling me that this one spell is useful against one weapon in the game?... And I assume only sometimes, since your foe has to give you an opening. It might be useful against all enemies with Unfaltering Prayer on the White Hair Talisman, which would give the Talisman some use and offer a new way of playing as a Pyromancer.

Technically, it's "useful" against any weapon with blocking attacks, not just the doors (I don't know if you've ever used the giant doors, but every attack is so slow that, yes, every time it attacks is an opening for grabs), and has some minor use in a few other situations, but yes for the most part it isn't worth using over other spells. Speaking practically, Dark Hand WA is better at everything because poise and healing, and also it doesn't use up a spell slot. All I'm saying is Sacred Flame isn't completely useless, it's just subpar. It's unique enough in use that, if you had a spare slot for whatever reason, you could at least attune it without feeling too bad about it.

Boulder Heave: True and untrue. The Aoe is a bit wacky, I won't deny it, yet isn't it very difficult to avoid. It has it's use, but I honestly think it should get some boost in terms of overall speed, still. Also, the free aiming aspect to give it range also does bother me just like with a lot other spells. If it were only on looong range, I would not mind it. Also... Stack up Fire resistance? Well, I can only really see that happen when you fight the same person multiple times in a row (happened to me once, actually). Even so, this would be your only useful spell, then.

Nothing untrue about any of that. The only time it isn't difficult to avoid is during the same time every spell in the game isn't difficult to avoid, which is when your opponent is able to dodge without anything else interfering. If they could dodge a Great Chaos Fire Orb right then and there, they can dodge Boulder Heave. If they couldn't, then they couldn't. Aside from that, BH does what GCFO can't by knocking an opponent over and putting them in a situation where they're forced to roll, which puts you at an advantage as a ranged fighter with fast AoE projectiles. (Dark pyros don't do fire damage, so you'd still have options even against a defense-maxing nuisance.)

Flame Whip: It can still, but hitting somebody with this thing is like trying to strike somebody with the DS2 Pickaxe. Your character completely locks up and stifly blasts it forward.

Don't try to open with it, obviously. It has short range and slow startup, you use it after hitting them with something else. Like a weapon, or BF.

Lightning Stake: Yep, and that AoE makes it so much better in melee range because it can roll catch, something incredibly important to have in DS3 yet scarce as hell amongst all weapons.

That AoE does nothing against people when they roll away instead of sideways, while Sunlight Spear can hit people who roll away but misses sideways. If you aren't using both, you're leaving giant gaping holes in your offense.

Sunlight Spear: It might be the most powerful projectile for a Faith person, but I still consider it too slow, predictable and weak when used in both melee and range. I do keep saying that I don't mind it's melee range aspect, but the projectile is just not up to the immense cost. Second, despite its speed getting buffed, it is still too slow to combo with Lightning Storm, only if the target gets hit three times, and only during a specific moment of the Storms duration, will you able to hit him. Third, the wider hitbox hardly helps. People still can avoid it with a very simple roll and are even able to strafe the giant bolt of electricity. Fourth, how many times did you try using it as a melee strike, yet it turned into a projectile because the enemy was just a step too far away? I can't befriend myself with this spell, mostly due to the fact that it used to be the only "proper" long range projectile amongst Miracles. Thank god for Lightning Arrow. Also, what about the other two Lightning Spears? Weak and expensive for their speed.

Again, it is too bad when used as a projectile, especially when compared to high cost spells of other schools, and its gimmick comes hardly into play in PvP due to multiple factors, at lest I think so.

It's the fastest, most damaging projectile Faith has, which also out-trades a majority of weapons in melee, and rollcatches in certain situations, and you aren't using it because you don't like the FP cost. Lightning Arrow has much slower startup and doesn't trade for even half as much, it has entirely different uses and you're trying to compare apples against oranges here.

Lifehunt Scythe: I actually agree with the low level usefulness, but that is, again, an easy cop-out for an argument. It shouldn't be just useful at low levels, but always. The healing got fixed, I know that, didn't felt the need to bring that up (as I said, I used every spell since the last patch). It still heals pretty mediocre, even with multiple enemies hit. I would be happy if it heals at least around 100 on a successful hit and a bit more for each on top of that.

Dorhy's Gnawing: I might should've said that I mainly talk about when these spells are getting used against competed, skilled players, eh? Because against those guys, this is is useless. Also, I also focused on using these spells on a pure spellcaster. Toxic Cloud can be used on a pure caster, still, unlike this one. When used together with a bleed weapon... Eh, still can't say it would find much use. It is far less stiff since a recent patch, true, but, well, first, your opponent clearly hears what spell you are casting, this one having a very unique sound cue that should warn everyone who has encountered this spell before. That silly thing of dodging around back and forth often only not so good players do... Which is why I can't really take as a good argument for this spell. Your opponents skill shouldn't be a serious factor used in the overall a discussion about the overall usefulness for spells (or weapons), I'd say. I mean, eventually they will learn to not do that. Might be useful on lower levels due to lower bleed resist etc.. Still, just like Lifehunt Scythe, only being useful then shouldn't be the case.

If an option has unique value on a low level or hybrid build, then it still has unique value in those situations even if you personally don't like playing at low levels or using hybrids. Personal preference has zero impact on viability. There's no cop-out here, I'm talking about a different meta for the one and a different build for the other, for both spells.

I never talk about PvP opponents who aren't skilled, because there's no reason whatsoever to discuss meta viability if your opponent isn't competent enough to require that kind of consideration in the first place. Yes, Dorhy's Gnawing is good in PvP against skilled players. It's quick to cast, the projectile is fast with light homing, it acts as a massive threat when it hits, it pairs well with certain weapon options in multiple situations, and it costs very little to use on top of that. It's a good spell by definition. And yes, skilled players do sometimes do that silly thing where they try to dodge your spells and nothing else, because sometimes people just want to be cheeky, and if they think they're good enough to do it without getting hit then there's little reason not to since a caster opponent without FP has already lost.

Also, I also focused on using these spells on a pure spellcaster.

Your decision to limit yourself has zero impact on the viability of any spell, weapon, or other option. If you aren't using a melee weapon when you could and should do so, the only thing you're accomplishing is to make yourself weaker and lose against opponents you should be beating.

Way of White Corona: My, you are getting a bit cheeky here, my friend. Then let me say something cheeky back. It's still pretty poopy, even with those facts. Your arguments here are more or less that it is good on a low level build (which I already said why that shouldn't be a positive point) and hybrids. And it being like Farron Dart? Ohoh, no. It's too slow in casting and projectile speed , too obvious and too low range to be as useful as that spell. I mean, it doesn't try to be. It has a gimmick, for that gimmick it is too weak or slow or predictable. And I guess those 300 damage are raw, right? Because I can't hit anybody but hollows with that much damage. Doubling the damage might've been m e exaggerating a bit, I admit, but I still would say it needs a boost of 50% in damage.

I didn't say it's like Great Farron Dart, I said it compares well to Great Farron Dart. It's fast to cast, it remains on the battlefield after being cast, and it threatens on the rebound, too. You can fire one or two off, and your opponent either has to reposition themselves so that they aren't between you and it, or else they'll need to dodge when it comes back and potentially eat another spell since you, naturally, just started using an attack or spell to rollcatch. If it did any more damage than it already does, it'd be broken.

And about Emit Force... Well, first off, yes I know you need to be good at free aiming with this thing, though the projectile speed still is too slow to really hit folks. Though, what I wanted to say... Who blocks agaisnt spells but new blokes?... No, really, after hundred of duels with my Miracle build I fought a handful carrying a shield useful for blocking... And they did not use it against me.

There's a time and a place for shields, namely to deal with rollcatches or in any other situation where you expect your opponent to try taking advantage of a dodge. The fact that the people you've fought don't at least have one in a backup slot speaks more to their lack of experience than to the overall worth of shields.

Miracles overall: Erm, I do use it... What does that have to do with anything? You mean the buff? It's neato... Outside of the arena... and often fighting clubs. Smacking people with it is fun when suddenly pulling it out from your offhand, too... You probably should've elaborated here, mate.

An opponent who tries to attack you while you're buffing is, obviously, breaking the generally accepted rules of PvP and does not count as a duel. I didn't need to elaborate, because it was a given and should be obvious.

Great Soul Arrow: Why? It's fast, cheap, deals good damage and can actually be rather surprising. It's good as suppressing fire as it is so spammable (and has fast projectile speed, unlike Great Deep Soul).

Great Heavy Soul Arrow: I forgot to mention it, and I apologize for that, but the key factor is the element of surprise. Nobody expects a dinky projectile after such a long casting time, and nobody expects it to deal that much damage. That is one upside of Sorcery I failed to mention: A lot of spells have the exact same casting animation and sound cues. I conceit, you should probably use it together with GSA, CSP or SP, even, to better throw people off. That is a tactic that even can work against skilled players, yes, since they are very hard to distinguish.

Any tactic that relies on your opponent being surprised or not expecting you to use something so obviously mediocre is not a viable tactic. It's a bad tactic and your opponent is bad for falling for it. I also don't like Great Deep Soul, for much the same reason.

Crystal Hail: Yes, I admit, I failed to test this spell properly. I shall use Rose of Ariandle on myself for that (But I swear I so tested it; is it really still so bad that I did not notice a difference?). But you already said that it still is crappy, and after properly testing it again... Yeah. There really is only one issue with it... Well, maybe two. First and foremost, it does not stun your opponent. If it would, it would actually work out as a setup spell. Second, the tracking could be a bit better. Lemme upgrade that.

Like I said before, a good chunk of the things I listed weren't because I disagreed with your reasoning, but because I felt like they needed a more fair assessment.

Farron Hail: That is true, though don't I think is it this spells job to keep people off your toes. I mean, if it could, it would be nice... A sorcery that did just that would've been nice in the recent DLC, eh?

Sorcery as a pretty conspicuous lack of "get off me" spells, so any spell with such an obvious flaw in melee range should be judged more harshly for that fact. Especially if you aren't willing to dip into other schools to make up for that flaw.

Affinity: I wouldn't say 500%, but... C'mon, you're telling me I'm supposed to use some wacky tactic to make this spell at least a bit useful? It should be good by its lonesome, the tactic you proclaim only used to open up more possibilities. I mean, Twisted Wall of Light is near useless past this, so you basically turn Affinity into a two-slot spell in exchange for a new angle of attack.

500% was supposed to be a "humorously literal" term, and I probably should've been more clear as to why. Compared to Affinity acting as a singular projectile, Affinity acting as five completely separate projectiles is technically 5x harder to dodge in the most literal fashion possible.

I also should've been more clear about the part where I wasn't saying TWoL makes Affinity 'good', but that it's a thing you can do if you want to use it anyways. Let there be no room for mistake here, Affinity is a bad spell in DaS3. There are many, many reasons why, but it is. TWoL can make it more likely to hit someone, but at the cost of an extra slot (meh, considering it used to cost 2-3 before) and at the cost of being even slower, which technically makes it worse unless you're at a long enough range and fighting another caster so their spell deflects off you.

I have a good point as of why I did this. First, spells have a base stat requirement, thus pretty much locking off all useful Miracles and many Pyromancies from pure Sorcerers and vice versa. One possibility is Pyromancers (or Hexers) using the Crystal Bell, which has a really great spell buff on an equal big Int and Faith. Still, on a proper PvP build (unless you want to sacrifice tons of health and stamina) you won't get access to the bestest of the best Miracles and Sorceries, not to mention how two of the best Miracles almost 100% need Unfaltering Prayer. Aaaand... at that point, most Sorceries will be outclassed by Pyromancies, anyways, in terms of speed, costs and damage. Not in unpredictability, that holds true.

A pyromancer build is a "proper PvP build". Again, you choosing not to use something you could/should be using is only you limiting yourself, and does not impact the viability of the things you are or are not using. Your point about not being able to use the best sorceries/miracles is irrelevant in this case, since you just got done saying CSS compares poorly to Vestiges and the only miracles you're losing are one healing spell and Lightning Storm (which is admittedly a loss, though less so without Unfaltering Prayer and if you didn't have to give up something the build would be too good). All the lack of UP means in this case is that you have to use different spells and play differently, since in every case you could be using an equivalent spell that doesn't need UP to work. Lightning Stake becomes Black Flame, Crystal Soul Spear becomes Chaos Bed Vestiges, so on and so forth. Sunlight Spear, ironically, remains worth using for its sheer projectile and cast speed. Homing Crystal Soulmass becomes good for something when your opponent has to deal with actually good melee spells and annoying setup **** like Black Serpent. So on, and so forth.

And mixing those rings, (Ugh, they shouldn't be here in the first place, but they are, so let's talk about it) yes, yes you can use two of two different schools. But then either each school will deal less damage, you will have less durability due to not wearing more than one ring that boosts health/armour etc.

A way to turn this ring problem less... problematic, is to just boost all spells by the percentage of the weaker versions and allow to only wear one of the two that boost one category. If that happens, I might very well consider mixing spells from different schools together not a terrible thing... Depends, then still don't mesh together too swell.

You misread what I wrote. I explicitly said don't mix rings from different schools, because that's terrible and doesn't work.

Edit: give me a bit to go over your fix suggestions, but not right now because I should've slept last night.

MrMoho

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#30
TSMP wrote:And there are a lot of spells Parting Flame is worse with than the normal pyro flame. You get the extra stagger earlier with Parting (but less damage, since Combustion WA can combo with BF), but less damage on Vestiges, Serpent, BF, and so on. I won't argue the value of that trade since speed is almost always better than power, but I sometimes wonder if people know just how much they're giving up for it.


I am aware of the drawbacks of Parting Flame, thus I suggested to hold it in one hand while the normal flame in the other (preferably left to still allow you the quick Combustion + Black Flame Combo you mentioned).

Also, I probably should say this now, even though it comes up later yet it still fits here due to dual-wielding catalysts and all... But I really would prefer if spells would still be useful when not used with any form of back-up weapon. Call me crazy, but when I hear caster I bean caster, not requiring those puny weapons! Probably my DnD brain talking here mainly though. But, you do cause me to agree that not all spells should work well together with other spells (or a pure caster). Personally I would prefer if they would work with both (a hybrid and pure caster) but I can let go of Dorhy's Gnawing... Since there are far better options for pure casters, still (I mean, even my much hated Sunlight Spear is definitely better that this one).

Another point: I can admit that a weapon is very nifty thing to have as a pure caster and most likely better than two Catalysts... But I just want carrying around two catalysts at once a valuable option. Parting Flame + Pyromancy Flame is so very close to be that, as Parting Flame actually affects spells in a way to make them much more effective in melee range, making it as decent an option as a weapon... almost.

There are other options, as well, that aren't as good. Scholar's Candlestick increases Sorcery Damage and can be used as a weapon (not a good one, though) and Saint-Tree Bellvine/Witch Tree Staff increase casting speed by a flat 30 when held out, even if using another Catalyst. Then there is also Preacher's Right Arm that sorta wants to help with my dream by having a build in magical melee attack... Not quite succeeding, of course.

It's an opinion, yes, possibly an unpopular one. But that is how I would prefer things to be.

I don't think it should initially track better, because at that range you should be using Black Flame or a melee attack instead. It doesn't need to be perfect, casters just need more/better options.


Better options they need, indeed. I mean, I suppose Black Serpent would need it right now if nothing else would change with other spells, thus me saying that this probably should be considered very last.

Yes, I agree that the lock-on mechanic as is **** over ranged fighters. Like, I don't know, maybe make the right stick change where you're aiming at without breaking lock-on, except then you can't switch targets. Make it a toggle maybe, like click the right stick to switch from 'change target' to 'pseudo free-aim'?

If the spell itself isn't dangerous, then it isn't a distraction because there's less reason to avoid it. Black Serpent is a distraction purely because it staggers just long enough for Vestiges to hit. Profaned Flame is a distraction for a very different reason, because if it hits it does decent damage and puts the opponent in a bad position. You don't want everything to distract the same way, because then if your opponent had a way to disable your one tactic you'd be ****.


Oh, you must've misunderstood me here, I believe. I want Profaned Flame to be a distraction and dangerous. Also, my wording “...Just like Black Serpent” was a bit unclear. I want it to be an as good of a distraction, not one that is like it.

I don't think your suggestion is going to work out. I personally say for it to better follow targets when locked-on while staying were it is when free-aimed... And a bigger, more distracting, blinding boom.

Technically, it's "useful" against any weapon with blocking attacks, not just the doors (I don't know if you've ever used the giant doors, but every attack is so slow that, yes, every time it attacks is an opening for grabs), and has some minor use in a few other situations, but yes for the most part it isn't worth using over other spells. Speaking practically, Dark Hand WA is better at everything because poise and healing, and also it doesn't use up a spell slot. All I'm saying is Sacred Flame isn't completely useless, it's just subpar. It's unique enough in use that, if you had a spare slot for whatever reason, you could at least attune it without feeling too bad about it.


I fully agree (sadly, I had not the pleasure to use it against the Doors, however. A pity, I must say). It is subpar and thus needs a buff. My idea of giving White Hair Talisman Unfaltering Prayer is a buff I say will help very much, allowing to pretty much “trade” with folks stupid enough hitting you twice with their weapon. I also don't think that will make any other Pyromancies broken. All those that are already useful are fast enough to cast, except maybe all forms of Fireball. Hell, it may make Firestorm useable... Not viable, though.

Nothing untrue about any of that. The only time it isn't difficult to avoid is during the same time every spell in the game isn't difficult to avoid, which is when your opponent is able to dodge without anything else interfering. If they could dodge a Great Chaos Fire Orb right then and there, they can dodge Boulder Heave. If they couldn't, then they couldn't. Aside from that, BH does what GCFO can't by knocking an opponent over and putting them in a situation where they're forced to roll, which puts you at an advantage as a ranged fighter with fast AoE projectiles. (Dark pyros don't do fire damage, so you'd still have options even against a defense-maxing nuisance.)


And I also will say that there is nothing untrue about that, either. I still consider GCFO a better option due to the more convenient/less user-unfriendly range. If I could spit my rock further with less trouble, I shall consider this spell good... Maybe also a bit more speed, that would be nice.

Don't try to open with it, obviously. It has short range and slow startup, you use it after hitting them with something else. Like a weapon, or BF.


Oh, starting up with Flame Whip is almost always a bad option in any Souls game, yes.
And yes, even when using after hitting them with something else is it either too slow or too small in terms of girth, as people often tend to roll around you and still can avoid it often when rolling away. A wider arc and a bit of tracking is all I'm asking for, Fromsoft. Pliz.

That AoE does nothing against people when they roll away instead of sideways, while Sunlight Spear can hit people who roll away but misses sideways. If you aren't using both, you're leaving giant gaping holes in your offense.


Using both is too expensive, very much so. You're gonna chug your Estus like a drunken maniac. However, that is a problem that plagues miracles overall... until Lightning Arrow got introduced. I don't think there is a huge gape in once offense when not getting both. Lightning Arrow works very well together with Lightning Stake as a follow-up against enemies that roll away, mostly due to the fact that you can hold the spell, allowing you to rollcatch them if your timing is right. Sunlight Spear still tends to be too slow to hit them unless they roll away twice, which doesn't tend to happen often.

It's the fastest, most damaging projectile Faith has, which also out-trades a majority of weapons in melee, and rollcatches in certain situations, and you aren't using it because you don't like the FP cost. Lightning Arrow has much slower startup and doesn't trade for even half as much, it has entirely different uses and you're trying to compare apples against oranges here.


Some points I made already, but I still cannot be convinced here. I don't think it is too far off comparing it with Lightning Arrow, but where if definitely isn't off at all is when compared to other “Big Boom” Spells. More expensive, slower and far more obvious than any of them. This spell needs lower FP costs (as do almost all Miracles) or higher damage at range/a unique gimmick there.

What I really should add however, is that I probably am quite exaggerating about my hatred for this spell. It is almost good, in my opinion, so very close of being it, but just so far away at the same time, in my opinion, and that infuriates me.

If an option has unique value on a low level or hybrid build, then it still has unique value in those situations even if you personally don't like playing at low levels or using hybrids. Personal preference has zero impact on viability. There's no cop-out here, I'm talking about a different meta for the one and a different build for the other, for both spells.

I never talk about PvP opponents who aren't skilled, because there's no reason whatsoever to discuss meta viability if your opponent isn't competent enough to require that kind of consideration in the first place. Yes, Dorhy's Gnawing is good in PvP against skilled players. It's quick to cast, the projectile is fast with light homing, it acts as a massive threat when it hits, it pairs well with certain weapon options in multiple situations, and it costs very little to use on top of that. It's a good spell by definition. And yes, skilled players do sometimes do that silly thing where they try to dodge your spells and nothing else, because sometimes people just want to be cheeky, and if they think they're good enough to do it without getting hit then there's little reason not to since a caster opponent without FP has already lost.


Talked about Dorhy's above, already.

Again, you seem to partly misunderstand me here, though. I meant to say that it should be always useful. If it is better at a certain level/ different meta, that is fine by me, if it is at least still always good.

Your decision to limit yourself has zero impact on the viability of any spell, weapon, or other option. If you aren't using a melee weapon when you could and should do so, the only thing you're accomplishing is to make yourself weaker and lose against opponents you should be beating.


Made my point above about this, as well.

I didn't say it's like Great Farron Dart, I said it compares well to Great Farron Dart. It's fast to cast, it remains on the battlefield after being cast, and it threatens on the rebound, too. You can fire one or two off, and your opponent either has to reposition themselves so that they aren't between you and it, or else they'll need to dodge when it comes back and potentially eat another spell since you, naturally, just started using an attack or spell to rollcatch. If it did any more damage than it already does, it'd be broken.


I found that it does its job at that very poorly and one is better off using different spells. The returning projectile is weaker than when thrown at and if locked-on it tends to fly up in such an awkward angle after passing your enemy that it hardly has time hitting them on the way back (free-aiming may fix that, but still, shouldn't be the thing to make it somewhat useful)... And it is still infuriating to use as it loves to hit walls.

If not more damage on the main hit should have more on the way back... And allow for a less awkward way to have it not ram every conceivable wall around you.

There's a time and a place for shields, namely to deal with rollcatches or in any other situation where you expect your opponent to try taking advantage of a dodge. The fact that the people you've fought don't at least have one in a backup slot speaks more to their lack of experience than to the overall worth of shields.


Oh, I didn't say there wasn't time for shields, though I say there is almost never against spells. I mean, even one that uses a shield against you should recognize that he really doesn't want to block Emit Force and should dodge it. Something very easily achieved. With zero repercussions. You can't take advantage if that forced roll, either, because Emit Force is too slow if used after another spell and too slow if trying to set up another spell with it.

I mean, maybe it doesn't need a boost in damage, but certainly one in projectile speed as well as getting rid of the reduced damage if not hit directly. If those two latter points get introduced, I will have to see if it is strong enough from there.

An opponent who tries to attack you while you're buffing is, obviously, breaking the generally accepted rules of PvP and does not count as a duel. I didn't need to elaborate, because it was a given and should be obvious.


Oh, yes, of course. Well, still, you gotta carry around a healing spell if you want to use it in the arena and not be crippled from flalling yourself as well as hope for am honorable opponent. In fighting clubs you got an Estus to take care of the lost health and (usually) more polite opponents, indeed.

Any tactic that relies on your opponent being surprised or not expecting you to use something so obviously mediocre is not a viable tactic. It's a bad tactic and your opponent is bad for falling for it. I also don't like Great Deep Soul, for much the same reason.


If you got four different spells with the exact same casting animation yet varying casting speeds, its quite easy to throw even a skilled player off with the timing, as everybody's natural reaction is towards the very first thing they see and hear (in this case you wiggling your staff and the sound cue). What I failed to mention first but edited in later is that Great Soul Arrow's faster casting speed also allows it to still hit folks when you know they messed up the distancing of their sprinting attack, at least for anything slower than a Katana, unlike CSP. Also, I am pretty confident you can follow up with a Great Souls Arrow after hitting somebody with the 2-h attack of Immolation Tinder, which is very useful as the second attack has not as much reach as the second, causing it to sometimes miss... And I think it does deal more damage that way, depending on your build. Gotta test this more.

Edit: It almost does, like, it is literally milliseconds away from doing so. Darn... Buuuut if they roll even a liiiiitle bit too late, it hits.

Like I said before, a good chunk of the things I listed weren't because I disagreed with your reasoning, but because I felt like they needed a more fair assessment.


Yep, I realized that, sorry if I made it sound like I didn't. Though do I swear I did test it... Yeesh, was it really so bad that it made me think nothing changed? I mean, it is bad... But that bad? Eh, played around with it more and fixed my point, either way.

Sorcery as a pretty conspicuous lack of "get off me" spells, so any spell with such an obvious flaw in melee range should be judged more harshly for that fact. Especially if you aren't willing to dip into other schools to make up for that flaw.


I absolutely agree. This school needs more “get off me” spells. Even in DS2 did it have none until the last DLC... And that one was mayor ***. I guess Farron Hail could changed into a spell that can also be that, but I would prefer if something else gains that honor... At least at first. Maybe adding a sort of AoE effect around the caster when smashing the Dark Edge into the ground? Would make it less vulnerable to getting rolled around.

Though if turning Farron Hail into it/helping it be less vulnerable to it? Hmm, have the projectiles spread out more, or allow tracking while casting it, maybe?

500% was supposed to be a "humorously literal" term, and I probably should've been more clear as to why. Compared to Affinity acting as a singular projectile, Affinity acting as five completely separate projectiles is technically 5x harder to dodge in the most literal fashion possible.

I also should've been more clear about the part where I wasn't saying TWoL makes Affinity 'good', but that it's a thing you can do if you want to use it anyways. Let there be no room for mistake here, Affinity is a bad spell in DaS3. There are many, many reasons why, but it is. TWoL can make it more likely to hit someone, but at the cost of an extra slot (meh, considering it used to cost 2-3 before) and at the cost of being even slower, which technically makes it worse unless you're at a long enough range and fighting another caster so their spell deflects off you.


Ah, I see, thank you for clearing that one up.

Yes, it is a bad spell. Getting its tracking reduced while getting carried over into a game that is much faster than the previous was a bad decision. My opinion to make it better is to increase the tracking, still.

A pyromancer build is a "proper PvP build". Again, you choosing not to use something you could/should be using is only you limiting yourself, and does not impact the viability of the things you are or are not using. Your point about not being able to use the best sorceries/miracles is irrelevant in this case, since you just got done saying CSS compares poorly to Vestiges and the only miracles you're losing are one healing spell and Lightning Storm (which is admittedly a loss, though less so without Unfaltering Prayer and if you didn't have to give up something the build would be too good). All the lack of UP means in this case is that you have to use different spells and play differently, since in every case you could be using an equivalent spell that doesn't need UP to work. Lightning Stake becomes Black Flame, Crystal Soul Spear becomes Chaos Bed Vestiges, so on and so forth. Sunlight Spear, ironically, remains worth using for its sheer projectile and cast speed. Homing Crystal Soulmass becomes good for something when your opponent has to deal with actually good melee spells and annoying setup **** like Black Serpent. So on, and so forth.


You must've misunderstand me here partly, again, though I admit that it might've been my fault. Some points I made previously right after Black Flame, and some points I arrived at due to me misunderstanding you, but let me explain the rest.

I didn't meant to say “Pyromancer is a proper PvP build”. Yes, mixing schools shouldn't cause all of them be as good together as when going pure, yes, but using melee weapons with spells should be as good an option as using two catalysts (or Scholar's Candlestick), a buffed (like with Parting Flame on Black Flame), or another spell (like what Farron Flash sword tries to be) allowing you to pass on a weapon, a used weapon either allowing you to save an Attunment slot and give you a different kind of flexibility. What I also was trying to say is that it is the only one that actually can do it.

You misread what I wrote. I explicitly said don't mix rings from different schools, because that's terrible and doesn't work.


Ah, sorry about that. Me writing this right after coming home from work and the unbearable heat in my room may have caused me to make that mistake. Regardless, I agree. Terrible Idea to do that.

Edit: give me a bit to go over your fix suggestions, but not right now because I should've slept last night.


Take your time, mate. I can await your responds.
Last edited by MrMoho on Fri May 19, 2017 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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